Binders-deal or no deal

[carlfense]

I must have missed the part of affirmative action that required that the hires be inferior.

They are not required to be inferior, but sometimes the most qualified person is not given the job because of non job related information is taken into account. Second best, can still be amazing person, but they are inferior to the person above them. Picking the best person regardless of race or gender is not affirmative action. Your implying he never gave men a chance to compete against women, is the same as implying that those women were hired because of their gender not because they were the most qualified to do the job.

But I didn't say (and Mitt Romney didn't say) that the women that he hired were inferior. He said that he wanted qualified women applicants and was not satisfied with a pool comprised of only qualified men. That's a good thing.

It's not nearly as dissimilar from affirmative action as you seem to think. Mitt Romney wanted qualified women and he hired qualified women even though he only had qualified male applicants at the beginning of the process.

 

[carlfense]

Carl your cliff notes are misleading a bit. You keep assuming the pool of people for positions wasn't just a list of people who applied for the jobs. So he saw the list of people noticed lots of men and few women, and told his people to find more female candidates for the jobs. Then they went through the lists and picked the people who filled the positions based on merits not on gender. In a perfect world, the peoples names and gender would never be on the application that is being considered.

No. Your statement here is misleading. You say that Romney "saw the list of people noticed lots of men and few women." Romney said otherwise.

Romney's words:

...I had the chance to pull together a cabinet and all the applicants seemed to be men.And I — and I went to my staff, and I said, “How come all the people for these jobs are — are all men.” They said, “Well, these are the people that have the qualifications.”

He specifically said "all men." He noted that they were qualified. Then he decided that he wanted (again, commendably) to have qualified women applicants.

You imply that the women who were picked for the jobs were picked because they were women, not because they were the best person for the job.

No I did not imply that. You seem to want to put those words in my mouth, but I did not imply that and I did not say that.

If they are not the best person for the job they are then inferior to the person who should have gotten the job, male or female.

Again, nowhere did I say that the women weren't the best people for the job. Nowhere did I imply that they were inferior. You're trying to put words in my mouth.

You implied men were not looked at but tossed aside to look at women first.

No. Romney's words implied that, not mine. He said that there was a pool of applicants who were qualified but that they were all men. Romney then specifically sought out qualified women and did hire several qualified women.

 

[Ziggy]

"I had the chance to pull together a cabinet and all the applicants seemed to be men."

I like how you skip right over that comment.

Implying doesn't put words in your mouth, that why its implied. You brought up affirmative action, which is about giving preferential treatment to minorities, which would imply that the candidates who are minorities got a little bump up against other non minority candidates. Romney wanted more candidates who were women, and got them, then picked from the pool of initial and added candidates and chose who they thought was the best for the position. You said Romney rejected the Male candidates before asking for only women.

Side note, I have no problem with a company looking for competent minorities(gender or race) to fill positions. But I have a problem if people are promoted or hired based solely on their skin color, race, sexual orientation over another more deserving applicant. The thing about discrimination is it is blind to all.

Do you have a problem with rejecting a group of qualified male applicants . . . and sending your staff out to look for female applicants instead . . . because you want to find some qualified female applicants?

That's what Romney said that he did.

 

[sd'sker]

"I had the chance to pull together a cabinet and all the applicants seemed to be men."

I like how you skip right over that comment.

Implying doesn't put words in your mouth, that why its implied. You brought up affirmative action, which is about giving preferential treatment to minorities, which would imply that the candidates who are minorities got a little bump up against other non minority candidates. Romney wanted more candidates who were women, and got them, then picked from the pool of initial and added candidates and chose who they thought was the best for the position. You said Romney rejected the Male candidates before asking for only women.

this is affirmative action: two equally qualified candidates compete for a job, one happens to be a women so you give her the job to diversify (meet a quota). that is affirmative action and that is exactly what romney says he did and (for once) actually did.

 

[Ziggy]

Your assume they were equally qualified. And that is why you are denigrating the person who got the job. Why is it so hard for you to believe she got the job because she was the best candidate for the position.

 

[sd'sker]

Your assume they were equally qualified. And that is why you are denigrating the person who got the job. Why is it so hard for you to believe she got the job because she was the best candidate for the position.

i do not know, maybe because romney described both the men and women candidates as 'qualified'. why are you denigrating the men who did not get the job?

 

[Ziggy]

I'm not, they didn't get the job means they are not the best candidate. that's the facts.

Short and simple: I think the women who got the jobs were the best candidates, and the men who got the jobs were the best candidates.

You say the women got the jobs so Romney could diversify is cabinet and not because they were the most qualified.

 

[sd'sker]

I'm not, they didn't get the job means they are not the best candidate. that's the facts.

Short and simple: I think the women who got the jobs were the best candidates, and the men who got the jobs were the best candidates.

You say the women got the jobs so Romney could diversify is cabinet and not because they were the most qualified.

i do say that, because that is what he said.

 

[Ziggy]

He did not say that. He wanted to gave women the opportunity to apply to become part of cabinet. They were picked because they were the best person for the job. If they were not his cabinet could have been all male or all female if they were the most qualified.

 

[sd'sker]

He did not say that. He wanted to gave women the opportunity to apply to become part of cabinet. They were picked because they were the best person for the job. If they were not his cabinet could have been all male or all female if they were the most qualified.

where are you getting this information? he said that he had a bunch of qualified applicants who were all men and the he went out and found some qualified women. he never mentioned anything about the most qualified. i refuse to believe the best of my politicians just because i like them.

also, this was a deflection to the real issue, equal pay for equal work. maybe you could share his stance on that with me?

 

[Ziggy]

Where are you facts to back up your claims. My information is how things work, if not then those men could file a lawsuit against Romney for discrimination. He saw a list that had almost no women applicants, believed that women are just as qualified if not better qualified and asked to find some who might want the position. If the person who was hired was not the most qualified tell me how you know this, and that it is just not you opinion.

Don't change the subject, heck you don't even think women should have held cabinet positions in his administration, because you think men are more qualified. And the real issue is the OP, if you wanna talk about equal pay, start a thread it is very simple.

 

[sd'sker]

Where are you facts to back up your claims. My information is how things work, if not then those men could file a lawsuit against Romney for discrimination. He saw a list that had almost no women applicants, believed that women are just as qualified if not better qualified and asked to find some who might want the position. If the person who was hired was not the most qualified tell me how you know this, and that it is just not you opinion.

Don't change the subject, heck you don't even think women should have held cabinet positions in his administration, because you think men are more qualified. And the real issue is the OP, if you wanna talk about equal pay, start a thread it is very simple.

man, i did try to change the subject. i have been watching too much romney, apparently.

i have told you what romney said. you have told me 'how things work'. i do not know what more there is to say. you point out that the women he hired were more qualified, i ask you how you know they were not equally qualified (romney just said that he only had qualified men and sought out 'binders full of women' who were qualified). all i am saying is what he was saying. he had qualified male applicants and got qualified female applicants. after that, you subjectively choose who you want on your staff. i changed the subject because there is nothing more to say. i link to articles and his words verbatim and you just cite 'that is how things work'. why would i want to continue with that conversation?

 

[knapplc]

He saw a list that had almost no women applicants, believed that women are just as qualified if not better qualified and asked to find some who might want the position.

The people who gave him that list do not support this story. I posted this a page or so ago, but it bears keeping in mind:

Romney didn't go out looking for these ladies, the women's group approached him. They did the legwork, they created the binders, and they contacted both candidates during the gubernatorial election to ensure each would be willing to hire women in their administrations.

Romney's claim that he discovered there weren't enough women in his pool is false:

“We contacted both candidates before the final election,” said Liz Levin, who was chairman of MassGAP until 2010. “This was an effort that we put our hearts in. We wanted to make sure that people knew how many good, qualified, terrific ladies there were.”
Romney agreed to work with the group, Levin said, and he appointed Kerry Healey, the incoming lieutenant governor, to be the liaison to MassGAP. Several weeks after the election, they presented several hundred applicants to Healey, said Levin, who is an Obama supporter but stressed that MassGAP is a bipartisan group.

LINK

 

[sd'sker]

He saw a list that had almost no women applicants, believed that women are just as qualified if not better qualified and asked to find some who might want the position.

The people who gave him that list do not support this story. I posted this a page or so ago, but it bears keeping in mind:

Romney didn't go out looking for these ladies, the women's group approached him. They did the legwork, they created the binders, and they contacted both candidates during the gubernatorial election to ensure each would be willing to hire women in their administrations.

Romney's claim that he discovered there weren't enough women in his pool is false:

“We contacted both candidates before the final election,” said Liz Levin, who was chairman of MassGAP until 2010. “This was an effort that we put our hearts in. We wanted to make sure that people knew how many good, qualified, terrific ladies there were.”
Romney agreed to work with the group, Levin said, and he appointed Kerry Healey, the incoming lieutenant governor, to be the liaison to MassGAP. Several weeks after the election, they presented several hundred applicants to Healey, said Levin, who is an Obama supporter but stressed that MassGAP is a bipartisan group.

LINK

again, i think it is worth noting that romney should be commended for listening the that group, MassGAP. but i think it is important to know the full story, its implications, and that he used this anecdote to deflect a very serious issue; equal pay for equal work.

 

[Ziggy]

Give me the quote where he says he filled his cabinet with the the non best qualified person for the job because she is a women. I have responded to you claims that he wanted to stock his cabinet with women, I came back and said only if they were the best person for the job. If they were not the best person for the job, and got it based on their gender, the Romney administration would have discrimination claims leveled against it. Do you have any proof that the best person was not hired? No I didn't think so.