Time to tax the poor?

[strigori]

Strig- Getting land from the govt in that time period cannot be compared to the govt handouts of today. To make that land payoff a person had to do something with it. It was basically worthless without adding your own toil and sweat.

The thing that most caught my attention in this article was the statistic; 1.25 taxpayers paying for 1.0 persons on assistance or govt employees. That is simply not sustainable long term.

It gave people a place to start. Many people on assistance right now have nowhere to start. Min wage jobs and no avenue to job training. The land grants would be more comparable today with the gov giving grants for college and job training programs. It gives people a place to start. Which one party is very much against.

The second number includes all the social security people, which is largely due to the upset population pyramid due to the Baby Boomers. And the 'tax payer' number also only includes income tax citizens. But pretty much the entire population pays all sorts of other taxes.

Sure it gave people a place to start. The land was unsettled, basically wild wilderness. I still don't think it is very appropriate to compare the land grants to current day welfare handouts. Now if you want to compare it to college grants and job training programs, I would agree those are things to help give people a start. I don't view those types of things as "government handouts" even though technically they are funded by the government (taxpayers). I view those types of expenditures as worthwhile investments in our future. Things I do not consider worthwhile, in many cases, would include; extending unemployment benefits, food stamps, housing assistance, basically just handing people money to exist. I realize that there is a small portion of our society that is incapable of taking care of their own basic needs due to mental and physical reasons- those are not the people I am against helping. Hell, I'm not even against short term temporary help for capable people. What I am against is the system that teaches them to expect help from the moment of birth, that more kids equals more benefits, and that uncle Sam has their back in every endeavor. I don't totally get the whole notion of needing the government to provide a "place to start". I would need it explained in detail how anyone born in this country in the last 50 years didn't/doesn't have a place to start. The one thing the government will never be able to provide, no matter how much money is thrown at it, is drive, determination, and perseverance. If you were born in this country and want a better life, you can achieve it. It may not be easy and nobody is going to hand it to you but, you can get there from here. (why in the heck can I not enter/return to create a new paragraph. ughhhh) How do you know that 2nd number includes people on social security? I would be interested to see that ratio with/without SS benefits.

Take a drive through some poor areas in a city, there are plenty of people who do not have a reasonable 'place to start' they are starting so far in a hole that it is not a fair chance. Decades past simply a will to work hard was enough to get ahead. Its not anymore. So much emphasis is erroneously placed on 'higher education' that makes getting ahead a serious hurdle. College or job training takes some serious money. And there simply are not enough grants or scholarships to go around for those who would make good use of them. Jobs that used to pay well without a piece of paper are very few and far between anymore, as more and more companies put degree requirements to even app, and they don't even care about what a degree is in.

We seem to be on the same page at least when it comes to actual job training and the like. That would be the equivalent of 'teach a man to fish' and I think attaching that to some of the welfare programs is a good idea, even though with the current state of one party, it would never get funding.

In one of the other threads there is a chart or two about the social security spending and the budget. Past that its just demographics of the massive number of baby boomers set to retire. Wall St will not be happy when that occurs.

 

[krill]

There's probably some room to increase income taxes on the poor and / or cut back on refundable tax credits. The idea that some people are getting a free ride from taxation though is nonsense. Everyone who works pays payroll taxes, everyone who purchases goods pays sales taxes, and a litany of other taxes and fees beyond income taxes. As for the tax burden increasingly falling on the wealthy, it shouldn't be that hard to do the math showing that surprisingly when the wealthy are the only ones seeing an real increase income, they pay more taxes.

 

[JJ Husker]

I would agree that many of those jobs that used to pay a livable wage do not seem to exist anymore. I think our economy and value are way out of whack due to the loss of so many manufacturing jobs. I'm not often accused of being overly brilliant but I would say we're on the wrong path, sending more and more of our money to foreign countries to buy things our people could be making, all the while we create a few more service industry (starbucks, fast food) type jobs. The day is coming that $5 coffees aren't going to cut it. Instead of fixing this root problem, we extend unemployment benefits and continue paying slave labor in Asia to provide necessities. That's not the fault of any one party. It's a collective failure of our government and our citizens that don't seem to have even a remedial grasp of how it all works.

 

[Junior]

I would agree that many of those jobs that used to pay a livable wage do not seem to exist anymore. I think our economy and value are way out of whack due to the loss of so many manufacturing jobs. I'm not often accused of being overly brilliant but I would say we're on the wrong path, sending more and more of our money to foreign countries to buy things our people could be making, all the while we create a few more service industry (starbucks, fast food) type jobs. The day is coming that $5 coffees aren't going to cut it. Instead of fixing this root problem, we extend unemployment benefits and continue paying slave labor in Asia to provide necessities. That's not the fault of any one party. It's a collective failure of our government and our citizens that don't seem to have even a remedial grasp of how it all works.

Who do you think sent the jobs to Asia? Your job creators who you don't want to increase taxes on, that's who.

 

[HSKR]

I would agree that many of those jobs that used to pay a livable wage do not seem to exist anymore. I think our economy and value are way out of whack due to the loss of so many manufacturing jobs. I'm not often accused of being overly brilliant but I would say we're on the wrong path, sending more and more of our money to foreign countries to buy things our people could be making, all the while we create a few more service industry (starbucks, fast food) type jobs. The day is coming that $5 coffees aren't going to cut it. Instead of fixing this root problem, we extend unemployment benefits and continue paying slave labor in Asia to provide necessities. That's not the fault of any one party. It's a collective failure of our government and our citizens that don't seem to have even a remedial grasp of how it all works.

Who do you think sent the jobs to Asia? Your job creators who you don't want to increase taxes on, that's who.

So if we increase taxes on them they will bring the jobs back over here?

 

[Malth]

lmao tax the poor? That's like getting blood from a stone. And just how much exactly do you expect to get from the poor? What benefits are there to shrinking the money supply? How bout that ridiculous wealth inequality we got going on?

This article is ridiculous propaganda for the 1%. Whoever wrote it has no idea, economically speaking, what they're talking about. Keep in mind we have a fiat currency and we're essentially pulling money from thin air, and he national "debt" is not a debt in the way this article portrays it. The instant someone talks about balancing the federal budget is the instant you can safely ignore anything they say.

http://pragcap.com/understanding-the-modern-monetary-system-part-1-2

http://pragcap.com/understanding-the-modern-monetary-system-part-2a

http://pragcap.com/understanding-the-modern-monetary-system-part-2b

http://pragcap.com/understanding-the-modern-monetary-system-part-3-2

http://pragcap.com/understanding-the-modern-monetary-system-part-4-2

 

[JJ Husker]

Good point HSKR. And no, I don't think a majority of our manufacturing jobs were off shored by our own job creators or primarily by the republican party. If I had to assign blame along party lines, I would be looking at the job killing policies of the dem party. Out of control unions, overbearing regulations, OSHA safety bs that far exceeds our global competition, a total lack of protectionist policies, and selfish consumers who can't comprehend the effect they have when they choose to not buy American.

 

[JJ Husker]

Malth- why tax anyone? With your economic view, all we need to do is print more money, manipulate some more markets and values and everything will be hunky dory. Problem is, if you haven't noticed, that approach isn't working.

 

[BigRedBuster]

So, let me ask this, if i am an American company and i am taxed heavily if i send manufacturing to China, but a Chinese company can import products without any added tariff, how am i supposed to compete?

I would agree that many of those jobs that used to pay a livable wage do not seem to exist anymore. I think our economy and value are way out of whack due to the loss of so many manufacturing jobs. I'm not often accused of being overly brilliant but I would say we're on the wrong path, sending more and more of our money to foreign countries to buy things our people could be making, all the while we create a few more service industry (starbucks, fast food) type jobs. The day is coming that $5 coffees aren't going to cut it. Instead of fixing this root problem, we extend unemployment benefits and continue paying slave labor in Asia to provide necessities. That's not the fault of any one party. It's a collective failure of our government and our citizens that don't seem to have even a remedial grasp of how it all works.

Who do you think sent the jobs to Asia? Your job creators who you don't want to increase taxes on, that's who.

 

[JJ Husker]

So, let me ask this, if i am an American company and i am taxed heavily if i send manufacturing to China, but a Chinese company can import products without any added tariff, how am i supposed to compete?

Who do you think sent the jobs to Asia? Your job creators who you don't want to increase taxes on, that's who.

I know, I know *eager student-hand raised high*

But I'm waiting for Junior to take a crack at it. Is it cricket season already?

 

[carlfense]

So, let me ask this, if i am an American company and i am taxed heavily if i send manufacturing to China, but a Chinese company can import products without any added tariff, how am i supposed to compete?

I would agree that many of those jobs that used to pay a livable wage do not seem to exist anymore. I think our economy and value are way out of whack due to the loss of so many manufacturing jobs. I'm not often accused of being overly brilliant but I would say we're on the wrong path, sending more and more of our money to foreign countries to buy things our people could be making, all the while we create a few more service industry (starbucks, fast food) type jobs. The day is coming that $5 coffees aren't going to cut it. Instead of fixing this root problem, we extend unemployment benefits and continue paying slave labor in Asia to provide necessities. That's not the fault of any one party. It's a collective failure of our government and our citizens that don't seem to have even a remedial grasp of how it all works.

Who do you think sent the jobs to Asia? Your job creators who you don't want to increase taxes on, that's who.

Make a better product than the product coming from China? :dunno

 

[tschu]

So, let me ask this, if i am an American company and i am taxed heavily if i send manufacturing to China, but a Chinese company can import products without any added tariff, how am i supposed to compete?

I would agree that many of those jobs that used to pay a livable wage do not seem to exist anymore. I think our economy and value are way out of whack due to the loss of so many manufacturing jobs. I'm not often accused of being overly brilliant but I would say we're on the wrong path, sending more and more of our money to foreign countries to buy things our people could be making, all the while we create a few more service industry (starbucks, fast food) type jobs. The day is coming that $5 coffees aren't going to cut it. Instead of fixing this root problem, we extend unemployment benefits and continue paying slave labor in Asia to provide necessities. That's not the fault of any one party. It's a collective failure of our government and our citizens that don't seem to have even a remedial grasp of how it all works.

Who do you think sent the jobs to Asia? Your job creators who you don't want to increase taxes on, that's who.

Make a better product than the product coming from China? :dunno

In general he product coming from China is cheaper to produce because of the borderline slave labor. It's not a quality issue.

 

[carlfense]

In general he product coming from China is cheaper to produce because of the borderline slave labor. It's not a quality issue.

Labor costs are a big obstacle but some people will still pay more money for a better product.

 

[JJ Husker]

"Some" will pay more for a better product but most will not - evidence Wal-Mart and the decline of smaller retailers and mom & pop stores. There has to be a healthy mixture of buy American sentiment, protectionist polices and tariffs, and regulatory support (not job killing strangulation). We can't expect the average consumer to electively pay more for most goods. It's time to level the playing field with cheap Asian labor. We need to reshore some of these low tech, low education jobs. If we do it with livable wages and acceptable safety and work conditions, tariffs can do the rest of the job.

 

[carlfense]

"Some" will pay more for a better product but most will not - evidence Wal-Mart and the decline of smaller retailers and mom & pop stores. There has to be a healthy mixture of buy American sentiment, protectionist polices and tariffs, and regulatory support (not job killing strangulation). We can't expect the average consumer to electively pay more for most goods. It's time to level the playing field with cheap Asian labor. We need to reshore some of these low tech, low education jobs. If we do it with livable wages and acceptable safety and work conditions, tariffs can do the rest of the job.

Free market choice + government manipulation?