BYU

[Savage Husker]

My take, is people think Bo didn't know how to coach defense, when in fact he is a defensive genius, he just doesn't know how to coach kids. Some confuse and/or don't know how to separate the two.

Gotta disagree with how you said that.
Bo knows defense. Bo knows a lot about defense.

Coaching is teaching. If Bo couldn't teach his players, then Bo doesn't know how to coach defense. I think you're actually confusing the two. Coaching is teaching others, it doesn't matter what you know if you can't get your players to execute it.

Now the way I've always seen it, Bo had some early success here in 2003 and his first couple years as a HC and I've always kind of had a theory as to why. Now, Ndamukong Suh would be the easy answer for some of that early defensive success as a HC, but thats only part of it.

I think Bo's early success can be attributed purely to K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid.

In 2003 Bo knew he didn't have a lot of time to teach all the philosophies, aspects, in and out's of his complicated defensive scheme, so he stuck to the basics. He got the kids on the same page quickly with some of the more simple aspects of his scheme and it worked. It paid off huge. Tons of turnovers in that 2003 year. Much the same in 2009-2010, I think the team was still executing some of the simpler aspects, like I said Suh helped a lot, but it didn't seem like the defense was as confused and we didn't hear about lack of execution after each game as much.

The further we went and the more he threw at them, the more problems it created. You lose an elite, maybe one of the best of all time talents at DT, you throw the book at the guys on defense because over time you expect them to be able to do more and more. I think it became too much and execution fell.

Simply, we got "too cute" and too complex. Bo had these grand theories of how it "should" be, but couldn't coach his guys to put it on the field.

Just a theory of mine, I could be way off though.

I understand where you're coming from, but I feel like you're mincing my words.
He knows his stuff and some people like to bash him or mock him for being penned as a "defensive genius." It's not as if he forgot how to attack an offense, he lacked relating his ideas to his players and implementing his schemes. Those that understood the defense did thrive, those that didn't were continuously out of position and made the whole team look bad.

It also doesn't help when he has players lacking discipline within the scheme or even adjusting to keys and communicating with teammates i.e. his blowup on Daniel Davie for not making a simple crack back call, instead following the WR into the LB, abandoning the flat and allowing Gordon to streak down the sideline untouched before Gerry ran him down...30-40 yards later. As a corner, that should be one of the most basic calls to make.

 

[Thanks_Tom RR]

Oops I typed that before I saw we were trying to get back on track. Carry on.....

Linebackers is what worries me in this game. That QB of theirs could expose some inexperience if we get caught with our eyes turned. Taysoms running ability is scary but he throws a nice ball.

I'll be curious to see how we line up against them. Whether we'll use more nickel and dime or go straight up 4-3 on em for the majority. Obviously depends on their personnel but I think with our lack of depth at LB'er, maybe we see some mismatched coverages or some guys like Kalu, or Cockrell coming in place of a LB'er even if they look like they're gonna run.

We need speed with eyes on that QB of theirs.

I agree with this assessment. However, Cockrell will not start practice at the being of fall camp but may be ready for BYU. Still, we will have to see his role early on.

 

[True2tRA]

Oops I typed that before I saw we were trying to get back on track. Carry on.....

Linebackers is what worries me in this game. That QB of theirs could expose some inexperience if we get caught with our eyes turned. Taysoms running ability is scary but he throws a nice ball.

I'll be curious to see how we line up against them. Whether we'll use more nickel and dime or go straight up 4-3 on em for the majority. Obviously depends on their personnel but I think with our lack of depth at LB'er, maybe we see some mismatched coverages or some guys like Kalu, or Cockrell coming in place of a LB'er even if they look like they're gonna run.

We need speed with eyes on that QB of theirs.

I agree with this assessment. However, Cockrell will not start practice at the being of fall camp but may be ready for BYU. Still, we will have to see his role early on.

Yea, I actually hadn't heard he wouldn't be back til' then until today. Welp, Kalu's a stud and maybe Charles Jackson is back in the mix to get on the field by then?

 

[Landlord]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

 

[hskrfan4life]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

Exactly, the promise we saw in year two seemingly erased as soon as we play Wisconsin.

 

[Sea of Red]

Oops I typed that before I saw we were trying to get back on track. Carry on.....

Linebackers is what worries me in this game. That QB of theirs could expose some inexperience if we get caught with our eyes turned. Taysoms running ability is scary but he throws a nice ball.

I'll be curious to see how we line up against them. Whether we'll use more nickel and dime or go straight up 4-3 on em for the majority. Obviously depends on their personnel but I think with our lack of depth at LB'er, maybe we see some mismatched coverages or some guys like Kalu, or Cockrell coming in place of a LB'er even if they look like they're gonna run.

We need speed with eyes on that QB of theirs.

I agree with this assessment. However, Cockrell will not start practice at the being of fall camp but may be ready for BYU. Still, we will have to see his role early on.

Yea, I actually hadn't heard he wouldn't be back til' then until today. Welp, Kalu's a stud and maybe Charles Jackson is back in the mix to get on the field by then?

Cjax should be in the mix. *crosses fingers

 

[Norhusker]

Oops I typed that before I saw we were trying to get back on track. Carry on.....

Linebackers is what worries me in this game. That QB of theirs could expose some inexperience if we get caught with our eyes turned. Taysoms running ability is scary but he throws a nice ball.

I'll be curious to see how we line up against them. Whether we'll use more nickel and dime or go straight up 4-3 on em for the majority. Obviously depends on their personnel but I think with our lack of depth at LB'er, maybe we see some mismatched coverages or some guys like Kalu, or Cockrell coming in place of a LB'er even if they look like they're gonna run.

We need speed with eyes on that QB of theirs.

I agree with this assessment. However, Cockrell will not start practice at the being of fall camp but may be ready for BYU. Still, we will have to see his role early on.

Yea, I actually hadn't heard he wouldn't be back til' then until today. Welp, Kalu's a stud and maybe Charles Jackson is back in the mix to get on the field by then?

Cjax should be in the mix. *crosses fingers

Would love to see Charles playing without injury this year. What is his potential? With this staff very high potential ( I hope).

 

[JJ Husker]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

 

[Mierin]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

Did the defensive talent increase exponentially from '07 to '09?

 

[JJ Husker]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

Did the defensive talent increase exponentially from '07 to '09?

IDK, did it decrease substantially from 2010 to 11...12...13...14?
Look, Bo had a system that would work in the Big 12 and one that would work with some NFL type talent on the team. So, he does know a little something about defense. But, his system did not fare so well in the B1G and it yielded some embarrassing results when people without the last name of Suh were on the field. These facts are not arguable, they happened, we watched them happen. So, was Bo the worst coach ever? No, he wasn't, but he sure as hell is long, long ways from the defensive genius some still profess he is/was. Defensive genius' don't give up all the rushing records Bo's defenses did. They don't fail to make adjustments. They don't own about 15 of the top 20 defensive futility records in Husker history. Sorry but when people try to still claim that he was some kind of defensive genius/guru, all I can do is laugh and question the intelligence of the person making such a claim.

 

[Mierin]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

Did the defensive talent increase exponentially from '07 to '09?

IDK, did it decrease substantially from 2010 to 11...12...13...14?
Look, Bo had a system that would work in the Big 12 and one that would work with some NFL type talent on the team. So, he does know a little something about defense. But, his system did not fare so well in the B1G and it yielded some embarrassing results when people without the last name of Suh were on the field. These facts are not arguable, they happened, we watched them happen. So, was Bo the worst coach ever? No, he wasn't, but he sure as hell is long, long ways from the defensive genius some still profess he is/was. Defensive genius' don't give up all the rushing records Bo's defenses did. They don't fail to make adjustments. They don't own about 15 of the top 20 defensive futility records in Husker history. Sorry but when people try to still claim that he was some kind of defensive genius/guru, all I can do is laugh and question the intelligence of the person making such a claim.

I don't see many (any) people claiming he's a genius/guru. In fact the person you originally replied to even mentions the Wisconsin game last year. Yes, the talent did decrease. It definitely did not increase from 2007 to 2009 yet we were a vastly improved defense. It could be claimed that Pelini was a major part in Suh's improvement, or the opposite could be claimed. There's really no way in knowing. Like I said earlier in the thread, Pelini would make a good position coach or perhaps defensive coordinator with the right head coach. He's not a good manager.

 

[JJ Husker]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

Did the defensive talent increase exponentially from '07 to '09?

IDK, did it decrease substantially from 2010 to 11...12...13...14?Look, Bo had a system that would work in the Big 12 and one that would work with some NFL type talent on the team. So, he does know a little something about defense. But, his system did not fare so well in the B1G and it yielded some embarrassing results when people without the last name of Suh were on the field. These facts are not arguable, they happened, we watched them happen. So, was Bo the worst coach ever? No, he wasn't, but he sure as hell is long, long ways from the defensive genius some still profess he is/was. Defensive genius' don't give up all the rushing records Bo's defenses did. They don't fail to make adjustments. They don't own about 15 of the top 20 defensive futility records in Husker history. Sorry but when people try to still claim that he was some kind of defensive genius/guru, all I can do is laugh and question the intelligence of the person making such a claim.

I don't see many (any) people claiming he's a genius/guru. In fact the person you originally replied to even mentions the Wisconsin game last year. Yes, the talent did decrease. It definitely did not increase from 2007 to 2009 yet we were a vastly improved defense. It could be claimed that Pelini was a major part in Suh's improvement, or the opposite could be claimed. There's really no way in knowing. Like I said earlier in the thread, Pelini would make a good position coach or perhaps defensive coordinator with the right head coach. He's not a good manager.

Well said. +1

 

[Mavric]

Gosh, this whole conversation is just so interesting.

Like. All I can really think of is how in the hell is the guy that coached the 2009 and 2010 defenses be the same guy that let Melvin Gordon break the FBS rushing record in three quarters?

That's the most insane thing to wrap your head around, and that's Pelini and his results here in a nutshell; unable to really qualitatively assess them because they're so paradoxical, unique and a bit unprecedented.

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

Did the defensive talent increase exponentially from '07 to '09?

IDK, did it decrease substantially from 2010 to 11...12...13...14?
Look, Bo had a system that would work in the Big 12 and one that would work with some NFL type talent on the team. So, he does know a little something about defense. But, his system did not fare so well in the B1G and it yielded some embarrassing results when people without the last name of Suh were on the field. These facts are not arguable, they happened, we watched them happen. So, was Bo the worst coach ever? No, he wasn't, but he sure as hell is long, long ways from the defensive genius some still profess he is/was. Defensive genius' don't give up all the rushing records Bo's defenses did. They don't fail to make adjustments. They don't own about 15 of the top 20 defensive futility records in Husker history. Sorry but when people try to still claim that he was some kind of defensive genius/guru, all I can do is laugh and question the intelligence of the person making such a claim.

I think the need for elite talent is over-played - everyone's system works better with better talent.

But I think you're on the right path with it working much better against the types of offenses we saw in the Big XII. Spread teams with not-very-mobile quarterbacks who didn't even try to run the ball very much. We didn't have to force them to be one-dimensional - the did that to themselves. And Bo's system always - even with the lesser talent the last few years - was among the tops in the nation in pass efficiency defense. Now you can argue that we didn't face as good of passing teams recently which is true but other teams were facing those same offenses and we were still better.

For whatever reason it/he couldn't/wouldn't adjust well enough to stop the run.

 

[Landlord]

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

Tons of teams, even yearly, have had the same levels of talent across the board on their defenses and not gotten anywhere close to the level of dominance of that unit. You can accredit all of that to Suh if you'd like, but I don't know how you can get past remembering that a ton of our quarterbacks and hurries were coverage sacks due to blanket coverage, which still continued after Suh was no longer on the roster. The 2010 defense was still pretty damn dominant and borderline elite, and even after that, we always led the nation in passing efficiency defense despite poor defensive line play (and no, it wasn't because teams had so much success running the ball that they didn't HAVE to pass on us).

Things like holding 2011 Michigan State to 3 points, 2012 Wisconsin (the first time) to 56 yards rushing, and others still happened after the fact.

How in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I don't know. That's what's fascinating. I have no idea how to reconcile the two realities, because chalking up the entirety of the really good reality to a roster with NFL players seems way too ridiculously simple to cover it. That 2009 defense was not the most talented defense in the entirety of college football in the last 15 years by a long shot, Suh or no Suh, but it was right around the most dominant. That doesn't just happen with a mediocre neanderthal of a defensive coach.

Sorry but when people try to still claim that he was some kind of defensive genius/guru, all I can do is laugh and question the intelligence of the person making such a claim.

You can laugh and question people's intelligence all you want, but you're finding comfort in a very broad and simplistic answer to a question/situation that likely has a ton of nuance, so I'd think you have your own head in the sand more than you think.

 

[JJ Husker]

It's almost like we had a bunch more defensive talent in 09 and 10 and maybe the dichotomy had very little to do with Bo or coaching and maybe had something to do with a man named Suh. It's really more logical that maybe Bo is not the defensive genius some profess him to be. If that were even close to the truth, how in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I'd listen to other explanations......

Tons of teams, even yearly, have had the same levels of talent across the board on their defenses and not gotten anywhere close to the level of dominance of that unit. You can accredit all of that to Suh if you'd like, but I don't know how you can get past remembering that a ton of our quarterbacks and hurries were coverage sacks due to blanket coverage, which still continued after Suh was no longer on the roster. The 2010 defense was still pretty damn dominant and borderline elite, and even after that, we always led the nation in passing efficiency defense despite poor defensive line play (and no, it wasn't because teams had so much success running the ball that they didn't HAVE to pass on us).

Things like holding 2011 Michigan State to 3 points, 2012 Wisconsin (the first time) to 56 yards rushing, and others still happened after the fact.

How in the hell did he manage to set so many defensive futility marks here? I don't know. That's what's fascinating. I have no idea how to reconcile the two realities, because chalking up the entirety of the really good reality to a roster with NFL players seems way too ridiculously simple to cover it. That 2009 defense was not the most talented defense in the entirety of college football in the last 15 years by a long shot, Suh or no Suh, but it was right around the most dominant. That doesn't just happen with a mediocre neanderthal of a defensive coach.

Sorry but when people try to still claim that he was some kind of defensive genius/guru, all I can do is laugh and question the intelligence of the person making such a claim.

You can laugh and question people's intelligence all you want, but you're finding comfort in a very broad and simplistic answer to a question/situation that likely has a ton of nuance, so I'd think you have your own head in the sand more than you think.

Suh is not the only answer. He was just the most obvious to make my point. There were other very good players involved too. The key points however are that his system worked better against the types of offenses we saw in the Big 12 and with some well above average talent. If the good defensive results were because of Pelini being some marvel at coaching defense then similar results should have been experienced with other players and vs other styles of offenses. The fact is Bo had a system that worked in limited situations and he failed to adjust his system or personnel to differing conditions. Hardly the trait of an excellent coach (position or head). A coach as good as some claim Bo was would've adapted to what was required. Basically he was more of a one trick pony than any kind of genius. The dichotomy of the results does not surprise me in the least. He basically got lucky and some opponents hit his wheelhouse and when they didn't fit the mold, the results could get very ugly. As an example, I am a very good free throw shooter, better than many who play NBA or NCAA ball. That doesn't make me a good basketball player though. It just makes me good at one aspect of the game. Bo was good when the conditions hit his system and personal just right.