The Democrat Utopia

[DevoHusker]

Money is how society places value on people. I’m talking in general here. It doesn’t mean you as an individual think one person is better than another because they are paid more. But we (collectively) have decided that. We’ve decided people who program video games are worth more than most painters. Even if the latter might be more talented. In this example it’s basically just supply and demand, so it makes sense. The former is creating something more people want. On the other hand I work on policy to try to increase a financial company’s profits. In reality I’m probably only making like 20 people in the universe happy but making more than most artists.

This is a way I started thinking about it recently. In an age where there are millions of people employed just to make the wealthy more wealthy, not because they are benefitting society in any way, there needs to be something that prevents poverty as that gap gets bigger and bigger. Especially when the people in or close to poverty might be working 40 hours and be doing something that helps a larger # of people.

Not relevant. There is no one debating that some people should get paid a lot more than others.

that seems to be exactly what you are debating...

 

[Ratt Mhule]

I will never understand how people can defend a system where 0.1% of the people control 90% of the wealth in this country.  These people have robbed peter and paul blind to make that much money and folks defend them like they are a family member.  These people rig the system in their favor to keep control of all the wealth and we call that "working hard"  Give me a break.  Greed, buying off politicans and screwing people (employees and consumers) are what these people are good at.  f#&% them.

 

[ZRod]

I will never understand how people can defend a system where 0.1% of the people control 90% of the wealth in this country.  These people have robbed peter and paul blind to make that much money and folks defend them like they are a family member.  These people rig the system in their favor to keep control of all the wealth and we call that "working hard"  Give me a break.  Greed, buying off politicans and screwing people (employees and consumers) are what these people are good at.  f#&% them.

That a pretty gross generalization. There are plenty of honest people who made their millions and millions the right way, or as close to ethically as one can. And many of those people would also agree that something needs to change. See Warren Buffet.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

That a pretty gross generalization. There are plenty of honest people who made their millions and millions the right way, or as close to ethically as one can. And many of those people would also agree that something needs to change. See Warren Buffet.

I would venture to guess there are more billionaires like Donald Trump out there than Warren Buffett, but yes, not all are con men and crooks.

 

[RedDenver]

Poor people willing to take more of rich people's money? Who would of guessed it!

The difference between the orange and red lines is the difference between how productive US workers are and how much they are compensated. The rich are taking everyone else's hard work without giving them any of the increases in their own productivity.

If you're going to complain about taking money from the rich, then you should also complain about the rich taking that money from their workers in the first place.

 

[Mierin]

Nothing about what a person makes indicates the value as they as a person. It’s a value of what they are doing and what they did to get there.

How is it decided whether a person is worthy of life-saving medicine or surgery, shelter, or food?

Again, I’m talking about how society values people. It’s based on wealth. People do certain things for other people based on what they can pay. This is true of almost all relationships. It only changes for people that know each other well.

 

[Mierin]

that seems to be exactly what you are debating...

If you can’t read, sure. 

 

[DevoHusker]

If you can’t read, sure. 

illiteracy is nothing to joke about :wacko:

I read just fine...but thanks for assuming because I am low income I am also low functioning...

 

[Mierin]

illiteracy is nothing to joke about :wacko:

I read just fine...but thanks for assuming because I am low income I am also low functioning...

The assumption I made was due to you horribly misinterpreting my posts.

I’m not sure how you can read this and then reply the way you did: “In this example it’s basically just supply and demand, so it makes sense.  The former is creating something more people want.“

In the above I’m saying it makes more sense to pay video game creators more than painters because more people value video games over paintings. Yet you and the 3 people who liked your reply took that, ignored it, and came to the wrong conclusion.

I’m talking about how society values people. I didn’t say how society should value people except to say that I don’t think one person is worth 365x more than any other person.

 

[Danny Bateman]

If you're going to complain about taking money from the rich, then you should also complain about the rich taking that money from their workers in the first place.

Yes!
 

I think that those arguing in favor of the merits of capitalism have good points. A free-market society where we earn our livings based on our personal strengths and skill sets is awesome. That's certainly more of a meritocracy than a socialist or communist nation led by brutal or even benevolent dictators who rule with an iron fist and decide what people get.

But the fact remains that those who stand to gain the most in such a society often do so off the backs of the working underclass. I'm talking the incredibly wealthy, major corporate CEO,  hedge fund and mega donor types, not your typical small business owner.

What the GOP/conservative/capitalist types miss is that the increasing numbers of younger people in my generation aren't talking about abandoning or betraying capitalism... we're in favor of reforming it so it's not such a raw deal for everyone not born with a silver spoon.

This type of reform approach is somewhat incompatible with the conservative, small government belief system. In spite of the drawbacks of bureaucracy, the federal government is still the most powerful tool available to bring about these types of necessary changes.

 

[Mierin]

No we haven’t. The people paying those two people have decided how much they value the service they are providing and that is heavily indicative of how easy it is to find a person that can do that service. 

Nothing about that is indicative of them as a person. 

I know now an amazing person who is the beer cart girl at our local golf course. But, I’m not going to pay her the same as I’m going to pay my heart surgeon who is a total egotistical prick.  

Because your heart surgeon is worth more to you. He’s the person doing what you value more. They are strongly tied together. The times they aren’t tied together are when we befriend people or fall in love with them or never transact with them, but I’m talking about value to society. 

People are given drugs and treatments based on the amount of $ they can pay. Same with food and shelter. Their worth is determined by what they can pay. 

 

[DevoHusker]

The assumption I made was due to you horribly misinterpreting my posts.

I’m not sure how you can read this and then reply the way you did: “In this example it’s basically just supply and demand, so it makes sense.  The former is creating something more people want.“

In the above I’m saying it makes more sense to pay video game creators more than painters because more people value video games over paintings. Yet you and the 3 people who liked your reply took that, ignored it, and came to the wrong conclusion.

I’m talking about how society values people. I didn’t say how society should value people except to say that I don’t think one person is worth 365x more than any other person.

my original comment, and stance, is based on the fact that you said no one should make 365 times more than someone else. I asked a legitimate question; "are they doing the same job?" because if your answer is yes they are, then your original view is correct, they should make roughly the same for performing the same job. But your assertion seems to be that because society values LeBron James to the tune of $39mil a year that we should somehow take money from him to compensate the (also well paid in this scenario) an Information Technology Systems Manger who makes $106k per year.

My point is that some people ARE valued/compensated more than others based upon their value, whether it is perceived or realized

 

[BigRedBuster]

Because your heart surgeon is worth more to you. He’s the person doing what you value more. They are strongly tied together. The times they aren’t tied together are when we befriend people or fall in love with them or never transact with them, but I’m talking about value to society. 

People are given drugs and treatments based on the amount of $ they can pay. Same with food and shelter. Their worth is determined by what they can pay. 

No. 

And if if that’s the case, you have your values screwed up. And I don’t think most people do. 

A basketball player yer very well might make more money that my heart surgeon......I doubt if your equation is going to hold up to that. 

 

[Ratt Mhule]

Two people walk into a fancy restaurant.  One is dressed like a bum and one is dressed in a nice suit and tie. Who do you think is treated better?

I have to deal with what Moraine is saying every day being in the medical field.  Nebraska medicine has in peoples charts, I kid you not, as VIP patients aka big donors.  When they are on the schedule I have gotten emails sent out to me to give this person "preferential treatment".

 

[Mierin]

No. 

And if if that’s the case, you have your values screwed up. And I don’t think most people do. 

A basketball player yer very well might make more money that my heart surgeon......I doubt if your equation is going to hold up to that. 

I’m talking about society. This is a great example. All Lebron James does is bounce a ball and throw it through a hoop. Yet he is deemed more worthy of medical treatment than millions of people who work full time jobs that are a lot tougher. His value/worthiness of medical treatment is based on how much $ he has. Not what he actually does to help society.

You are talking about individuals here. I like my best friend a lot because she’s a good person. I’d save her life above almost all others. But society values her based on how much money she has and can give.