QB depth

[Hercules]

In all seriousness, I don't think Martinez is that bad of a passer. He's not that good of a passer either. But he's more accurate than Eric Crouch was as a senior - he just doesn't have the pocket presence or knowledge of the system or experience that Crouch had. He's not as accurate as Frost or Frazier were, not yet anyways.

None of those guys were Peyton Manning, but that doesn't mean that they can't be incredibly successful in a system that fits them.

If you're comparing Martinez's passing ability to Kirk Cousins' passing ability, you're simply comparing apples to oranges. That's like comparing Martinez's running ability to Cousins' running ability. They're completely different types of players.

Last year, Martinez's passing ability wasn't our weakness, in all seriousness. Our inconsistency on offense, demonstrated most perfectly by our wide receivers' worst and best performances (Texas and then Oklahoma State) was our weakness early on. Later on, our weakness was lack of depth on the offensive line and at QB. When our guys got hurt, they still had to play, because they were still better than their backups. THAT was our problem. Not Taylor Martinez's passing ability - our problem was that when he got hurt, we didn't have anyone left that could run our offense. Zac Lee could run the snail version of our offense, but against Missouri that was worthless except for a big run by Helu - not much different than an injured Martinez against Oklahoma. Cody Green couldn't run our offense at all - they had to put Rex Burkhead at QB if they wanted to get into the endzone, and that was against a weak Colorado team for god's sake.

Criticism of Martinez's passing game is fair - he can certainly use improvement, it was a weakness in his overall game. But that's not why our offense struggled down the stretch. Great teams, teams that win national championships or conference championships - they either get lucky and make it through a season without their QB getting hurt - or they have such good depth behind/around their QB that when their QB gets hurt, they have a guy or two that can step in behind him.

Look at Oregon and Auburn last year - if Cam Newton goes down (or gets suspended), they lose. If Darron Thomas had gone down for more than one game against Washington, their championship hopes might have ended. But neither one of those teams were relying on a QB with two bad wheels to get to the BCS Title game. Auburn got lucky, Oregon got lucky and had depth. That and simply better consistency from the rest of their offense, is why they were better than us last year. Not because of Martinez's passing mechanics.

 

[Hercules]

Hercules, those sacks were really on Taylor. He was injured, sure, but it's not like he was exactly limping his way to running deep patterns as a receiver. It looked like he was just flustered out of his mind and panicked, big time. A huge checkmate by the opposing DC to get into our QB's head like that.

zoogies, I didn't say that the sacks weren't on Taylor. I was responding to GMoose, who asked why Martinez didn't make 70 degree cuts in order to avoid those sacks. I answered that it might have been because he couldn't make 70 degree cuts, given his physical condition at that point in the season.

If GMoose had asked, "Why didn't Taylor throw the ball away or find his checkdown receiver when he took all of those unnecessary sacks?" that would be a fair indictment of Martinez's ability. But asking why a QB wouldn't make a 70 degree cut to avoid a sack when it's pretty well known that Martinez had two bad wheels is completely unreasonable.

 

[Hujan]

EDIT 2: Where were those 70 degree cuts when he took tons of unnecessary sacks?

That's an interesting question. We should probably look at the film, but if I remember correctly, I think it's possible that it looked like Taylor could have had an injured ankle or something at that point of the season. Probably not though, I'm sure my mind was just playing tricks on silly old me.

EDIT: In response to your assertion that Taylor Martinez is not a leader, I submit this evidence: Taylor Martinez was seen in a picture with his teammates, at a lake/BBQ, and the upper part of his face did form in a way that made it appear he was smiling. In addition to that, Aaron Green tweeted a shout-out to Taylor Martinez a week or so ago, thanking Martinez for his help during drills that day. Checkmate, my friend, checkmate.

I find it somewhat humorous that Martinez lovers will dismiss the overwhelming indications that he has/had an attitude problem last year, yet do not think twice about trotting out the thinnest of evidence that he is actually a leader (i.e., his picture at the lake and AG's tweet).

I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader. But I am saying that one side of this debate is not exactly playing fair.

 

[Hercules]

EDIT 2: Where were those 70 degree cuts when he took tons of unnecessary sacks?

That's an interesting question. We should probably look at the film, but if I remember correctly, I think it's possible that it looked like Taylor could have had an injured ankle or something at that point of the season. Probably not though, I'm sure my mind was just playing tricks on silly old me.

EDIT: In response to your assertion that Taylor Martinez is not a leader, I submit this evidence: Taylor Martinez was seen in a picture with his teammates, at a lake/BBQ, and the upper part of his face did form in a way that made it appear he was smiling. In addition to that, Aaron Green tweeted a shout-out to Taylor Martinez a week or so ago, thanking Martinez for his help during drills that day. Checkmate, my friend, checkmate.

I find it somewhat humorous that Martinez lovers will dismiss the overwhelming indications that he has/had an attitude problem last year, yet do not think twice about trotting out the thinnest of evidence that he is actually a leader (i.e., his picture at the lake and AG's tweet).

I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader. But I am saying that one side of this debate is not exactly playing fair.

I guess I needed one of these: :sarcasm

To me, citing the BBQ or the tweet from Aaron Green as evidence is as ridiculous as the oft-cited: "I saw him on the sideline on TV for a couple seconds and he wasn't talking to anybody."

 

[gobiggergoredder]

EDIT 2: Where were those 70 degree cuts when he took tons of unnecessary sacks?

That's an interesting question. We should probably look at the film, but if I remember correctly, I think it's possible that it looked like Taylor could have had an injured ankle or something at that point of the season. Probably not though, I'm sure my mind was just playing tricks on silly old me.

EDIT: In response to your assertion that Taylor Martinez is not a leader, I submit this evidence: Taylor Martinez was seen in a picture with his teammates, at a lake/BBQ, and the upper part of his face did form in a way that made it appear he was smiling. In addition to that, Aaron Green tweeted a shout-out to Taylor Martinez a week or so ago, thanking Martinez for his help during drills that day. Checkmate, my friend, checkmate.

I find it somewhat humorous that Martinez lovers will dismiss the overwhelming indications that he has/had an attitude problem last year, yet do not think twice about trotting out the thinnest of evidence that he is actually a leader (i.e., his picture at the lake and AG's tweet).

I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader. But I am saying that one side of this debate is not exactly playing fair.

I'm still waiting for someone to say he really had strong leadership before his ankle injury. After the ankle injury, he clearly lacked leadership. Everything goes back to the ankle.

 

[knapplc]

I find it somewhat humorous that Martinez lovers will dismiss the overwhelming indications that he has/had an attitude problem last year, yet do not think twice about trotting out the thinnest of evidence that he is actually a leader (i.e., his picture at the lake and AG's tweet).

I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader. But I am saying that one side of this debate is not exactly playing fair.

Yes, one side is not playing fair, and that's the "he's not a leader" side. That opinion is based on nothing, no evidence, nada, zilch. It's based on what your preconceived notions conjured up when you saw something on TV.

Sadly, there is ample evidence that Martinez is a leader, and that he's growing into that role, and it's not difficult to find. Simply type "Martinez Leader" into google and you get several articles quoting guys like Beck, Burkhead, BK, Kyler Reed and yes, even Aaron Green, who all say he's growing into the role. This is solid, verifiable evidence, yet it is discounted against the unassailable bastion of "Well, that's just my opinion, so there."

Falling back on, "It's just my opinion" is fine, but it doesn't win any arguments. I can steadfastly ignore your the-sun-rises-in-the-East evidence, and fall back on "It's just my opinion that it rises in the West," but I shouldn't be shocked when none of you take me seriously. And those of you ignoring facts presented to you showing Martinez' physical abilities in these games, and ignoring direct quotes from coaches and players about his character, should not be shocked when you're not taken seriously, either. Facts are facts, and they are dispassionate and do not involve being a "Martinez lover" or a "Carnes lover" or a fanboy of any other player.

I have repeatedly stated that I don't care who starts, that I am simply debunking invalid myths. Yet over and over you continue to paint people who disagree with you as "Martinez lovers." Your arguments are making less sense every time you bring them out. They are debunked by actual evidence, and when they are, you resort to the notion that those who show you that your stance is wrong are on some kind of bandwagon.

At what point do you realize that it's not about being a fan of this guy or that guy; rather, it's about being a fan of THE TEAM, and Martinez is part of the team? That's going to happen someday, right?

 

[The Dude]

Yeah that whole logic thing is tricky.

 

[Hujan]

I find it somewhat humorous that Martinez lovers will dismiss the overwhelming indications that he has/had an attitude problem last year, yet do not think twice about trotting out the thinnest of evidence that he is actually a leader (i.e., his picture at the lake and AG's tweet).

I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader. But I am saying that one side of this debate is not exactly playing fair.

Yes, one side is not playing fair, and that's the "he's not a leader" side. That opinion is based on nothing, no evidence, nada, zilch. It's based on what your preconceived notions conjured up when you saw something on TV.

Sadly, there is ample evidence that Martinez is a leader, and that he's growing into that role, and it's not difficult to find. Simply type "Martinez Leader" into google and you get several articles quoting guys like Beck, Burkhead, BK, Kyler Reed and yes, even Aaron Green, who all say he's growing into the role. This is solid, verifiable evidence, yet it is discounted against the unassailable bastion of "Well, that's just my opinion, so there."

Falling back on, "It's just my opinion" is fine, but it doesn't win any arguments. I can steadfastly ignore your the-sun-rises-in-the-East evidence, and fall back on "It's just my opinion that it rises in the West," but I shouldn't be shocked when none of you take me seriously. And those of you ignoring facts presented to you showing Martinez' physical abilities in these games, and ignoring direct quotes from coaches and players about his character, should not be shocked when you're not taken seriously, either. Facts are facts, and they are dispassionate and do not involve being a "Martinez lover" or a "Carnes lover" or a fanboy of any other player.

I have repeatedly stated that I don't care who starts, that I am simply debunking invalid myths. Yet over and over you continue to paint people who disagree with you as "Martinez lovers." Your arguments are making less sense every time you bring them out. They are debunked by actual evidence, and when they are, you resort to the notion that those who show you that your stance is wrong are on some kind of bandwagon.

At what point do you realize that it's not about being a fan of this guy or that guy; rather, it's about being a fan of THE TEAM, and Martinez is part of the team? That's going to happen someday, right?

I wasn't directing my post at you, Knap (though I think it's somewhat telling that you would assume it was). Truth be told, Saunders is, to me, the prototypical example of a "Martinez first, Nebraska second" type of fan. At least, that is the impression I get from his passionate defense of Martinez every time the topic is brought up. (Sorry, Saunders.)

The fact is, I was not discussing whether or not Martinez is a leader. Please re-read my post and you will see I expressly said just that. ("I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader.") My exact comment was regarding Martinez's "attitude problem," of which there is ample evidence. (The A&M fiasco, the reports that he has quit the team on multiple occasions, the off-putting involvement of his father, the fact that Martinez felt compelled to issue a statement at the end of the season, etc. Even the way he discussed the A&M fiasco in that recent CBS article gives me some concern.)

Again, no one has satisfactorily explained why there would be so many rumors about Martinez if there wasn't at least a kernel of truth to the belief that he has some attitude issues. Why pick on Martinez if there is absolutely nothing there? If our experience has taught us anything, rumors rarely appear entirely out of thin air and are usually shown to be somewhat accurate in the end. The team is not air tight and things (be it coaching changes, injuries, player discipline) usually leak out long before an official acknowledgment is made.

So, again, I find it funny that people would dismiss the multitude of indications that Martinez has or had an attitude problem last year, only to seize on the flimsiest of evidence that he is a "leader." A picture smiling at a cabin? A tweet from Aaron Green? Really? (Herc's sarcasm aside.)

Regarding the leadership issue (which, again, I was not specifically addressing), you cite the fact that multiple players have been quoted as saying Martinez was a leader. In doing so, you ignore the fact that a reporter felt compelled to ask the question to begin with. Did anyone ask players if they thought Zach Taylor, Joe Ganz, or Zac Lee were leaders? Why would a reporter feel it necessary to delve into the issue of Martinez's leadership if there was no question that Martinez is a leader? Thus, the very fact that reporters have been asking players about it is evidence that there is some objective reason to doubt his leadership abilities.

This, of course, is not to mention the fact that the players' responses are probably not the best evidence of whether Martinez is or not. Do you really see someone of Rex Burkhead's character telling a reporter, in response to whether Martinez is a leader, "Not really. I mean he is our QB, but I don't really respect the guy and a lot of others feel the same way." You're dreaming if you think that is even a realistic possibility, regardless of how Burkhead truly feels.

 

[okaive]

Why pick on Martinez if there is absolutely nothing there? If our experience has taught us anything, rumors rarely appear entirely out of thin air and are usually shown to be somewhat accurate in the end. The team is not air tight and things (be it coaching changes, injuries, player discipline) usually leak out long before an official acknowledgment is made.

Will have to disagree with you alittle on this one. I know you said "rarely", but when I was stationed on ships and have been out to see over 3 or 4 months, a couple of us would start rumors about going to certain ports in the mess decks (where all the gullible people were (knowing full well that it was going to be quit sometime before we saw land)). The rumors would spread like wildfires to where the Commanding Officer would have to come out and squash it out.

Now if someone has a beef with TM, they could do this same thing very easily and the way the internet is now, it will spread just as fast as it did on an Aircraft Carrier full of 5000 people.

 

[Hercules]

The fact is, I was not discussing whether or not Martinez is a leader. Please re-read my post and you will see I expressly said just that. ("I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader.") My exact comment was regarding Martinez's "attitude problem," of which there is ample evidence. (The A&M fiasco, the reports that he has quit the team on multiple occasions, the off-putting involvement of his father, the fact that Martinez felt compelled to issue a statement at the end of the season, etc. Even the way he discussed the A&M fiasco in that recent CBS article gives me some concern.)

Knapp's point was that there is no more evidence of poor leadership or an attitude problem than there is of good leadership or a good attitude.

The A&M fiasco has been about as thoroughly investigated as a situation like that could be. I don't see how that is evidence of an attitude problem. Sketchy decision making and miscommunication maybe, but not an attitude problem.

There were no "reports" that he quit the team on multiple occasions. Reports are something filed by journalists. You're talking about rumors on message board with no sourcing. There were rumors that Martinez quit the team, on multiple occasions, all of which turned out to be false. So why do you still bring them up?

The off-putting involvement of his father has absolutely nothing to do with Martinez's attitude or leadership ability. That is more flimsy evidence than "Aaron Green tweeted that Martinez helped him out in drills today."

The fact that Martinez felt compelled to issue a statement at the end of the season also has nothing to do with his attitude or leadership. It was a response to the never-ending rumors that he was leaving the team. With that example, your logic is about as sound as, "There are rumors that Taylor Martinez is a witch. He denied it, which means he's a witch."

Again, no one has satisfactorily explained why there would be so many rumors about Martinez if there wasn't at least a kernel of truth to the belief that he has some attitude issues. Why pick on Martinez if there is absolutely nothing there? If our experience has taught us anything, rumors rarely appear entirely out of thin air and are usually shown to be somewhat accurate in the end. The team is not air tight and things (be it coaching changes, injuries, player discipline) usually leak out long before an official acknowledgment is made.

As far I'm concerned, I don't believe it's my role in this discussion to explain to you why all of those rumors would persist if there wasn't some truth to them. Ever heard the saying, "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes?" As far as I'm concerned, its your responsibility to convince me that there's some truth to the rumors when so far they've all been wrong.

 

[Saunders]

I wasn't directing my post at you, Knap (though I think it's somewhat telling that you would assume it was). Truth be told, Saunders is, to me, the prototypical example of a "Martinez first, Nebraska second" type of fan. At least, that is the impression I get from his passionate defense of Martinez every time the topic is brought up. (Sorry, Saunders.)

This just proves that you don't even read anything that people post, and you just spew pointless drivel that suits whatever the hell your retarded agenda is. I want you to find a single post of mine where I specifically state that I want Taylor Martinez, and Taylor Martinez only, to start. You can't. Why? Because I've never said that. In fact, last year, I was for Lee starting, until the WKU game was in the books. If you actually read what I post, you'd see what I'm getting at. I have not attacked a single person for saying anything negative about Taylor's play on the field. I've attacked the horrible "evidence" or straight up lies that people have made up, and tried to pass as fact.

It's beyond ridiculous that I would even have to defend myself as well. All I've done is shoot down all the bullsh#t that some people (including you) are spreading on this, and other boards. It's funny, because when you guys are backed into a corner and proven wrong...you vanish. You continually say he's selfish, a terrible leader, a teamkiller, whatever, and when people ask you to prove this garbage, you bail, and start a new thread or start pooping all over another one. It's happened over, and over, and over, and over.

Frankly, I'm tired of it. Don't get all butthurt when someone calls you out and asks for evidence when you're trying to pass your entirely unsubstantiated opinion as fact.

Once again, for the 5,000 time. I want the best player to start (I can't believe I'm doing this again). But If your gonna make sh#t up, don't get pissed when you get called out.

:rant

 

[GMoose]

I find it somewhat humorous that Martinez lovers will dismiss the overwhelming indications that he has/had an attitude problem last year, yet do not think twice about trotting out the thinnest of evidence that he is actually a leader (i.e., his picture at the lake and AG's tweet).

I'm not saying Martinez is or is not a leader. But I am saying that one side of this debate is not exactly playing fair.

Yes, one side is not playing fair, and that's the "he's not a leader" side. That opinion is based on nothing, no evidence, nada, zilch. It's based on what your preconceived notions conjured up when you saw something on TV.

Sadly, there is ample evidence that Martinez is a leader, and that he's growing into that role, and it's not difficult to find. Simply type "Martinez Leader" into google and you get several articles quoting guys like Beck, Burkhead, BK, Kyler Reed and yes, even Aaron Green, who all say he's growing into the role. This is solid, verifiable evidence, yet it is discounted against the unassailable bastion of "Well, that's just my opinion, so there."

Falling back on, "It's just my opinion" is fine, but it doesn't win any arguments. I can steadfastly ignore your the-sun-rises-in-the-East evidence, and fall back on "It's just my opinion that it rises in the West," but I shouldn't be shocked when none of you take me seriously. And those of you ignoring facts presented to you showing Martinez' physical abilities in these games, and ignoring direct quotes from coaches and players about his character, should not be shocked when you're not taken seriously, either. Facts are facts, and they are dispassionate and do not involve being a "Martinez lover" or a "Carnes lover" or a fanboy of any other player.

I have repeatedly stated that I don't care who starts, that I am simply debunking invalid myths. Yet over and over you continue to paint people who disagree with you as "Martinez lovers." Your arguments are making less sense every time you bring them out. They are debunked by actual evidence, and when they are, you resort to the notion that those who show you that your stance is wrong are on some kind of bandwagon.

At what point do you realize that it's not about being a fan of this guy or that guy; rather, it's about being a fan of THE TEAM, and Martinez is part of the team? That's going to happen someday, right?

I'm not calling you a Martinez lover. You've made it clear that you don't care who starts. That's not my argument. My argument is that he's not a good passer. You provided KC Joyner stats. They do paint him in a good light. However, looking beyond that, answer me this: Does your heart skip a beat every time every time Martinez drops back for a pass, or are you confident in him to throw the ball like we were with Zach Taylor (or even Ganz sometimes). Do you think he's at a high enough skill level in the mold he is (I'll say... 30% pass, 70% run?) to give us the most success with the players around him? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to my pro style offense advocacy. And like I said, when I say "good passer" I'm comparing him to a drop-back passer. I don't care what the Joyner stats look like, he is NOT a good drop back passer. Is he better throwing in some situations than some passers? Probably. But overall, he is not a good passer by the standards I'm using.

In terms of running skill, that's a thing I think he actually can improve on, but needs work. A lot of it will come only from experience in not taking stupid sacks and gaining better field vision.

The statements about his characters are far from made up preconceived notions. His demeanor in interviews is indicative of the kind of person he is, I know that from being around him. Judging by his demeanor in interviews, being standoffish and borderline cocky, would you think he's a good leader? And Cody Green, the one person OUTSIDE of the program who doesn't stand to lose anything by being honest, said Martinez was distant and quiet.

 

[robsker]

In all seriousness, I don't think Martinez is that bad of a passer. He's not that good of a passer either. But he's more accurate than Eric Crouch was as a senior - he just doesn't have the pocket presence or knowledge of the system or experience that Crouch had. He's not as accurate as Frost or Frazier were, not yet anyways.

None of those guys were Peyton Manning, but that doesn't mean that they can't be incredibly successful in a system that fits them.

If you're comparing Martinez's passing ability to Kirk Cousins' passing ability, you're simply comparing apples to oranges. That's like comparing Martinez's running ability to Cousins' running ability. They're completely different types of players.

Last year, Martinez's passing ability wasn't our weakness, in all seriousness. Our inconsistency on offense, demonstrated most perfectly by our wide receivers' worst and best performances (Texas and then Oklahoma State) was our weakness early on. Later on, our weakness was lack of depth on the offensive line and at QB. When our guys got hurt, they still had to play, because they were still better than their backups. THAT was our problem. Not Taylor Martinez's passing ability - our problem was that when he got hurt, we didn't have anyone left that could run our offense. Zac Lee could run the snail version of our offense, but against Missouri that was worthless except for a big run by Helu - not much different than an injured Martinez against Oklahoma. Cody Green couldn't run our offense at all - they had to put Rex Burkhead at QB if they wanted to get into the endzone, and that was against a weak Colorado team for god's sake.

Criticism of Martinez's passing game is fair - he can certainly use improvement, it was a weakness in his overall game. But that's not why our offense struggled down the stretch. Great teams, teams that win national championships or conference championships - they either get lucky and make it through a season without their QB getting hurt - or they have such good depth behind/around their QB that when their QB gets hurt, they have a guy or two that can step in behind him.

Look at Oregon and Auburn last year - if Cam Newton goes down (or gets suspended), they lose. If Darron Thomas had gone down for more than one game against Washington, their championship hopes might have ended. But neither one of those teams were relying on a QB with two bad wheels to get to the BCS Title game. Auburn got lucky, Oregon got lucky and had depth. That and simply better consistency from the rest of their offense, is why they were better than us last year. Not because of Martinez's passing mechanics.

It has been a while since I have had time to post... but this stuff seems to have been discussed often before...

Anyway... I'd say that no single problem made our offense bad last year --- neither Taylor's passing nor the OL depth were "the problem." Both were problems... but were numbered among another 5-6 problems as well. Dropped passes contributed. Three times as many penalties as should have been the case was a problem. Play calling was a problem too. Another contributor was Taylor not being instructed to throw the ball away and thus eating many sacks that should not have been. And, a final contributor would be the coaching staff playing Talyor when he was some combination of physically and/or psychologically not healthy enough to play.

This assessment may sound bleak... but really it was many problems — pretty much each of which could, conceivably, be rectified this year. Rather than a single enormous problem causing our pitiful offense from last year, we have slightly more than a half dozen fixable problems that, cumulatively, made us weak last year.

Experience. Healing. Maturing. New coaching. These all may result in a much better offense this year.

Lets hope.

 

[Igetbored216]

Martinez does have the ability to make great cuts along with his straightline speed (i.e., his acceleration is great). However, I will say that in watching him, he's definitely not the most elusive QB I have ever seen (see: all the ridiculous sacks he took last year). Yeah, some of that had to do with the o-line, but then again, I did say I was worried about the offense. I know everyone thinks Beck will just step in and the offense will be fixed, but it just doesn't happen that way. When Pelini came here to fix the defense it wasn't an overnight fix. It took just about an entire year for players to start buying in and "getting" it.

And ANYONE who says Martinez is a great thrower, needs to get their eyes checked. I can think of numerous times throughout the year where balls were overthrown, underthrown, too leading, etc. Sure, there were some bad drops in the Texas game (most memorable was Burkhead's), but I also remember several times where the ball was just really poorly thrown. I also remember several times where Martinez just got sacked, or stuffed when he tried to run (he was not injured at that point). I am well aware that he is a rFR, but remember, he's only going to be a rSo this year, so to think that his throwing or decision making is going to improve greatly would be wishful thinking. This offense will be average at best this year, in my opinion based upon what I see in place. We will have to rely heavily on our defense to win alot of games and hope someone can make a play here or there on offense. Of course, I think Beck may have a better grasp of how to use his players (moving Turner to WR is a great move), but even when Pelini got here the defense didn't immediately get awesome overnight.

Just my two cents

 

[Hercules]

And ANYONE who says Martinez is a great thrower, needs to get their eyes checked.

This is part of the problem in threads like this. Nobody in this entire discussion claimed Martinez is a great thrower. Nobody, on either side of the argument, has tried to argue that Martinez is a great thrower. So, who are you talking to?