QB depth

[Hercules]

I'm not calling you a Martinez lover. You've made it clear that you don't care who starts. That's not my argument. My argument is that he's not a good passer. You provided KC Joyner stats. They do paint him in a good light. However, looking beyond that, answer me this: Does your heart skip a beat every time every time Martinez drops back for a pass, or are you confident in him to throw the ball like we were with Zach Taylor (or even Ganz sometimes). Do you think he's at a high enough skill level in the mold he is (I'll say... 30% pass, 70% run?) to give us the most success with the players around him? I don't think so. Again, this goes back to my pro style offense advocacy. And like I said, when I say "good passer" I'm comparing him to a drop-back passer. I don't care what the Joyner stats look like, he is NOT a good drop back passer. Is he better throwing in some situations than some passers? Probably. But overall, he is not a good passer by the standards I'm using.

In terms of running skill, that's a thing I think he actually can improve on, but needs work. A lot of it will come only from experience in not taking stupid sacks and gaining better field vision.

The statements about his characters are far from made up preconceived notions. His demeanor in interviews is indicative of the kind of person he is, I know that from being around him. Judging by his demeanor in interviews, being standoffish and borderline cocky, would you think he's a good leader? And Cody Green, the one person OUTSIDE of the program who doesn't stand to lose anything by being honest, said Martinez was distant and quiet.

Does my heart skip a beat when Taylor passes? Most of the time, yes. He was a Redshirt Freshman, and I'd feel the same way when Carnes goes back to pass if he gets the nod this year.

The problem with the angle that you're coming at this from is that we don't - and won't - run a pro-style passing attack. If you start from that angle and maintain that frame of mind, of course you're never going to be remotely comfortable with Martinez as our QB. The trick is to look at how he's used in the context of our offense. If we use what skills he has as a passer in the right way, he can be very effective. Comparing him to Zac Taylor is unfair, as they were in entirely different offenses, with entirely different skill sets. I would be as scared watching Zac run an option offense as I would be watching Taylor run a pro passing offense. Yet even still, Taylor's QB rating was better in his first year starting (138.8) than Zac's (115.9). That is a significant stat, considering that passing is NOT Martinez' strong suit. Martinez is a capable passer, and hopefully will improve from his Freshman year - in fact, it would be astounding if he did not. But used correctly he has the skills to be effective throwing the ball.

I'm not going to engage in any more debates about Martinez' character. If you've talked to him once that's more times than I've talked to him. I've talked to Bo and Beck and Brown and some other guys and I've read several interviews from both Bo and Beck that say Martinez is fine. I'm happy with that. I also know that he doesn't have to be friendly or nice or anything at all, as long as he can get the offense into the end zone. We've had guys on the team in decades past who were hated by the rest of the team off the field, but on the field they meshed well and were successful. That's all we need from Martinez. If the guys around him actually like him that's gravy, but not necessary.

Now we are finally on the same page. Like I said, I'm biased because I'd like to see a more balanced attacked. We concludes my original point...that Martinez is not an adequate enough passer to give us a truly balanced attack, which is concerning to me for predictability reason. Hopefully Beck utilized Martinez and the rest of our teams' strengths better than Watson did.

In the OP at least, you said you advocated for a pro-style attack, which is different from what you are saying now, that you'd like to see a more balanced attack. I think everyone would like to see a balanced attack one way or another. However, we're not going to be running a pro-style offense, so Martinez doesn't need to be that kind of QB. He does need to be adequate in order for us to achieve balance - and I do think he is an adequate enough passer to allow us to achieve balance. He's just not going to do it as a pocket passer in the pro-style offense - we're going to find another way.

My bad I guess for not specifying. I'd like to see balanced in terms of run/pass ability. An offense with the ability to attack through the air if the run game is struggling, and vice versa. If the passing game gets shut down, no problem, but if the run gets shut down, Martinez isn't going to be bailing us out. I want pro style so that we can have balance.

Ok, but like I said, we don't need a pro style attack in order to have balance. It seems to me that a lot of people think balance means 50% run and 50 % pass. I don't look at it that way. A balanced offense is anything that keeps the defense off balance. If your running attack is so strong that defenses have to sell out in order to stop it, you have to be able to take advantage of that through the air. Even though the passing game is opened up by a stronger, more reliable running game, it's still a balanced offense.

Last year's Texas, Oklahoma State, and Missouri games are good examples of what our offense should be somewhat like with Martinez at the helm. Texas had to sell out so much to stop our running game that they were leaving wide receivers running wild throughout the first half (if only we had caught the ball). Oklahoma State used the same gameplan as Texas, sold out to stop our run, but our wide receivers found their stick 'em and we scored 51 points. Against Missouri, they sold out to contain Martinez and our passing game, so Roy Helu rushed for 307 yards.

Martinez showed during that stretch that he can be an adequate passer when he's at full speed, because our running game was so deadly that teams had to account for him. After he was hurt, our running game suffered, therefore our passing game suffered. Martinez has the chops to keep the offense moving if he's healthy - the question at QB this year will be, "Can the offense function if Carnes has to step in if/when Martinez gets banged up?"

Martinez showed pretty clearly last year during that conference stretch before his injury that he's got some game. No, he's not a great passer, but he made up for that by forcing the defense to account for his running ability.

What we should really be worried about is, "Can the offensive line create holes for our running backs and protect our QB for an entire season?" and, "Can our wide receivers catch the ball consistently?" On top of that, fumbles and penalties. All of those items are more pressing concerns to me than the QB position.

 

[Hercules]

I don't think a comparison to either Darron Thomas or Cam Newton is apt.

With Thomas, it could change this year I suppose, but that is a player who made his zone reads, just as one example of the 'total package' side of being a QB (I'm sure his acceleration is not as good as Taylor's).

Making those zone reads is something that Rex Burkhead, a second-year player at a different position, was also able to do, actually since his true freshman year if I remember correctly. I guess it isn't that complicated, but the light just needs to come on, and hopefully it has for Taylor this offseason. Then he can get to the other quarterbacking aspects.

Neither Thomas nor Newton are great passers and they, along with players like Locker or Young or Pryor or Troy Smith or Nate Davis, will always get criticism in this area. You could argue then that the criticism is against an unreasonable, and probably a next-level standard. In Taylor's case, it's just against a D1 standard. We can all agree that he was a redshirt freshman and that he has a chance of reaching that level, though. Taylor is very new to his position so it's not really his fault. He's not the athletic guy who is a bit quirky in his mechanics; he's the guy that has barely scratched the surface of how to run an offense at this level, and will need a lot of time and work just to get to be that athletic guy who is quirky with his mechanics.

The plus-side, is that his athleticism blows those other guys out of the water, for the most part.

My point with comparing Martinez to Darron Thomas or Cam Newton had nothing to do with skill sets or experience (it was their first season as starters, too). It was the idea that Martinez is being criticized for his play during a time when he was hurt. He couldn't run and cut, and that is his game! If Darron Thomas or Cam Newton had been injured, would either of their teams have made it to the national championship game? If Cam Newton couldn't run against Alabama, when they were down 21-0, would he have been able to become a pocket-passer for the rest of the game and lead them to victory? Would Darron Thomas have been successful if he was reduced to being a pocket passer, not able to run Oregon's zone read?

The point is, both of those teams would have struggled and lost down the stretch had their QBs been injured like Martinez was. They got lucky, and we didn't, and if you aren't lucky, you better have depth. We had average or weak depth, and we were even unlucky enough to have both our backup QBs get beat up as well.

Martinez wasn't really our problem last year. Our problem was that our depth was such that a guy with a high ankle sprain and a turf toe was forced to play at times when he was nowhere close to 100%.

 

[GMoose]

That makes me wonder how much of the Martinez dislike simply comes from the fact that he's not a pro-style QB, which makes me wonder how many people over the age of, say, 30 have these same concerns. It would seem that those of us old enough to vividly remember the 80s and 90s are more likely to be unconcerned with such things, having seen a number of run-first QBs succeed.

The funny thing is, the same biases against run-first quarterbacks that were being exhibited by the pundits in the 90s exist today, and just like the 90s, they are completely misplaced in college football. Run-first QBs can succeed today, just like they could then.

The most successful class in college football history, the Huskers who went 60-3 in their five-year careers, came from a run-first offensive philosophy. And they did it in an era where it was "impossible" to succeed doing it that way.

It's not that I don't like him because he isn't pro style. I know this sounds like the 90's argument that run-first offense can't possibly succeed, but that's not my argument. With the right staff and team it can be unstoppable.

In my opinion, the best chance to be successful in the most situations is to be equally good at throwing the ball as running the ball. I understand we don't have that because we don't run that offense. In fact, I embraced it to an extent when we had Ganz. Since I'm not the O-coordinator, I want the QB that gives us the best chance to succeed within our offense.

I think our offense has the capacity to be balanced, which deep down I think is what we all really want. I think in our offense, a good passer with quickness, mobility, and some running ability gives us the best chance to be balanced. (Todd Reesing, Matt Groethe, Colt McCoy, Jerrod Johnson). I also think its easier to come by (but that's a different discussion). I think we can agree that Martinez is on the other side of the spectrum - he's got blazing speed with some decent throwing ability.

 

[mnhusker]

I just got done watching last years Missery game and I had forgotten how good the pre-injury Martinez was. I hope he gets back to that form, a little better passing will be great and I expect that will happen. If his is hurt and is not mobile than lets hope we have an offense this year that does not go down in flames with an injury. Even that game stopped on a dime as soon as he went out.

 

[bshirt]

With that defense we could have went 10-4 with Richard Simmons taking the snaps.

With that defense we could have went 10-4 with me at qb.

 

[Hujan]

I wasn't directing my post at you, Knap (though I think it's somewhat telling that you would assume it was). Truth be told, Saunders is, to me, the prototypical example of a "Martinez first, Nebraska second" type of fan. At least, that is the impression I get from his passionate defense of Martinez every time the topic is brought up. (Sorry, Saunders.)

This just proves that you don't even read anything that people post, and you just spew pointless drivel that suits whatever the hell your retarded agenda is. I want you to find a single post of mine where I specifically state that I want Taylor Martinez, and Taylor Martinez only, to start. You can't. Why? Because I've never said that. In fact, last year, I was for Lee starting, until the WKU game was in the books. If you actually read what I post, you'd see what I'm getting at. I have not attacked a single person for saying anything negative about Taylor's play on the field. I've attacked the horrible "evidence" or straight up lies that people have made up, and tried to pass as fact.

It's beyond ridiculous that I would even have to defend myself as well. All I've done is shoot down all the bullsh#t that some people (including you) are spreading on this, and other boards. It's funny, because when you guys are backed into a corner and proven wrong...you vanish. You continually say he's selfish, a terrible leader, a teamkiller, whatever, and when people ask you to prove this garbage, you bail, and start a new thread or start pooping all over another one. It's happened over, and over, and over, and over.

Frankly, I'm tired of it. Don't get all butthurt when someone calls you out and asks for evidence when you're trying to pass your entirely unsubstantiated opinion as fact.

Once again, for the 5,000 time. I want the best player to start (I can't believe I'm doing this again). But If your gonna make sh#t up, don't get pissed when you get called out.

:rant

Saunders, the fact that you resort to profanities and personal attacks is where I draw my sense that you are as much or more a fan of Martinez than of the team. You really seem to take it personally when someone criticizes him. Take your above post as evidence of that. Why the anger?

By the way, having an affinity for a player is not necessarily a bad thing that you would have to "defend" yourself against. It's not like being called a bigot. It is totally normal and to be expected. But it does make it difficult for you to be impartial and objective about their weaknesses. Frankly, I would have a hard time being impartial about Rex, I love the kid's attitude so much.

All of you guys swear up and down that you don't care who starts so long as they are the best, but many of you sure froth at the mouth when someone criticizes Martinez. It goes beyond having a calm, adult debate about a player and into personal attacks. I just don't get you guys.

 

[Hujan]

Again, no one has satisfactorily explained why there would be so many rumors about Martinez if there wasn't at least a kernel of truth to the belief that he has some attitude issues. Why pick on Martinez if there is absolutely nothing there? If our experience has taught us anything, rumors rarely appear entirely out of thin air and are usually shown to be somewhat accurate in the end. The team is not air tight and things (be it coaching changes, injuries, player discipline) usually leak out long before an official acknowledgment is made.

As far I'm concerned, I don't believe it's my role in this discussion to explain to you why all of those rumors would persist if there wasn't some truth to them. Ever heard the saying, "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes?" As far as I'm concerned, its your responsibility to convince me that there's some truth to the rumors when so far they've all been wrong.

Your comment above assumes I intend to convince you. I honestly don't care what you think about Martinez. My sole intent is to show that reasonable minds can differ about Martinez's character and ability to lead this team. You guys won't even acknowledge that much.

WHETHER OR NOT YOU REMAIN FIRM IN YOUR OPINION OF MARTINEZ, can you not at least see why others would have reason to doubt his leadership and attitude? At all?

 

[Lyons in the Sea of Red.]

Jeez give it a rest

 

[The Dude]

You see Hujan, rumors are simply just rumors until they are proved to be true. That's how, ya know, logic works.

 

[Hujan]

You see Hujan, rumors are simply just rumors until they are proved to be true. That's how, ya know, logic works.

Your statement is circular and makes no sense. A rumor is an unverified account. Nothing more, nothing less. Some people insist on waiting for complete confirmation before they believe something; others are content to make a decision based on the information available, even if there is no absolute confirmation of that fact.

I suppose you believe Osama bin Laden is still alive?

 

[The Dude]

You see Hujan, rumors are simply just rumors until they are proved to be true. That's how, ya know, logic works.

Your statement is circular and makes no sense. A rumor is an unverified account. Nothing more, nothing less. Some people insist on waiting for complete confirmation before they believe something; others are content to make a decision based on the information available, even if there is no absolute confirmation of that fact.

I suppose you believe Osama bin Laden is still alive?

No, I don't. His death has been confirmed. That has nothing to do with this.

If you're going to claim something about Taylor Matinez, the burden of proof lies on your shouders. You can't say "it hasn't been disproved, therefore it's true". Doesn't work that way. That's a logical fallacy.

 

[Hercules]

Again, no one has satisfactorily explained why there would be so many rumors about Martinez if there wasn't at least a kernel of truth to the belief that he has some attitude issues. Why pick on Martinez if there is absolutely nothing there? If our experience has taught us anything, rumors rarely appear entirely out of thin air and are usually shown to be somewhat accurate in the end. The team is not air tight and things (be it coaching changes, injuries, player discipline) usually leak out long before an official acknowledgment is made.

As far I'm concerned, I don't believe it's my role in this discussion to explain to you why all of those rumors would persist if there wasn't some truth to them. Ever heard the saying, "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes?" As far as I'm concerned, its your responsibility to convince me that there's some truth to the rumors when so far they've all been wrong.

Your comment above assumes I intend to convince you. I honestly don't care what you think about Martinez. My sole intent is to show that reasonable minds can differ about Martinez's character and ability to lead this team. You guys won't even acknowledge that much.

WHETHER OR NOT YOU REMAIN FIRM IN YOUR OPINION OF MARTINEZ, can you not at least see why others would have reason to doubt his leadership and attitude? At all?

No. I don't see why others have reason to doubt his leadership and attitude, or at least not any more than any other player on the team. I explained that in this other post in response to your list of reasons you doubt Martinez's leadership and attitude:

The A&M fiasco has been about as thoroughly investigated as a situation like that could be. I don't see how that is evidence of an attitude problem. Sketchy decision making and miscommunication maybe, but not an attitude problem.

There were no "reports" that he quit the team on multiple occasions. Reports are something filed by journalists. You're talking about rumors on message board with no sourcing. There were rumors that Martinez quit the team, on multiple occasions, all of which turned out to be false. So why do you still bring them up?

The off-putting involvement of his father has absolutely nothing to do with Martinez's attitude or leadership ability. That is more flimsy evidence than "Aaron Green tweeted that Martinez helped him out in drills today."

The fact that Martinez felt compelled to issue a statement at the end of the season also has nothing to do with his attitude or leadership. It was a response to the never-ending rumors that he was leaving the team. With that example, your logic is about as sound as, "There are rumors that Taylor Martinez is a witch. He denied it, which means he's a witch."

 

[ronsss]

its beginning to look like t martinez is injury prone, espically that ankle, didn,t he get it hurt again in spring practice...what i read he did, though bo said it was nothing compared to the injury during last season. my gut feeling is t martinez is breakable, and carnes will be snapping the ball soon. the depth after that is a concern, though the coaches stated they had a lot of faith in kellog.

cody green leaving is a sort of a surprise, thinking the starting qb was between him and t magic..my gut feeling is that brion carnes was sliding into the #2 depth chart

 

[corncraze]

its beginning to look like t martinez is injury prone, espically that ankle, didn,t he get it hurt again in spring practice...what i read he did, though bo said it was nothing compared to the injury during last season. my gut feeling is t martinez is breakable, and carnes will be snapping the ball soon. the depth after that is a concern, though the coaches stated they had a lot of faith in kellog.

cody green leaving is a sort of a surprise, thinking the starting qb was between him and t magic..my gut feeling is that brion carnes was sliding into the #2 depth chart

Martinez didn't get hurt over spring, he just hadnt fully recovered from his previous injury he had from the missouri game.

 

[sdhusker82]

With that defense we could have went 10-4 with Richard Simmons taking the snaps.

:yeah