I serve an amazing God

[Enhance]

But, he's 'God', with control over everything. Wouldn't he be able to alter anything as he chooses and it would be OK? It doesn't matter if destroying every bacteria would result in mass extinctions, because 'God' could hypothetically divert this issue, if he really has as much control as some people insinuate.

What you're saying, though, supports my idea that 'God' doesn't have control. If he really does, it's vastly unfair and at odds with the world.

Exactly. But then we would find evidence for God acting as a puppet. We would be able to say, here is how things worked. Now we're free of disease, hooray! But all of this other stuff isn't acting like it should given the circumstances. Therefore, God must exist. I'm just pointing out how if God is a puppet who controls everything, then he's sure putting the universe on cruise control right now. If he was messing around with our everyday lives we would have evidence for him pulling the puppet strings - there would be things that just wildly wouldn't add up.

I don't know if I can say his lack of influence asserts his existence. But, then again, it really gets into who "he" is, or what "he" is. I don't see 'God' as a he, even though I refer to it as a 'him', as millions of other people all the time. I see it as more of an ultimate connection to the universe. It's the most reasonable explanation for me because I can't accept that there's nothing that put us here, anymore than I can accept that there's something who ultimately decides whether I live or die and removes my free will.

 

[HuskerShark]

Shark, as I posted above, denying your child an ice cream cone and choosing whether or not to cure a person's cancer are two very, very different things. They're vastly incomparable.

1) maybe you are overestimating the significance of life.

2) maybe you need to accept the fact that there are so many things that are impossible for our human minds to understand.

 

[knapplc]

The chief danger in a belief system like Shark is describing is this - it's tremendously easy for a human to manipulate someone who has that kind of utterly blind faith. I don't mean blind faith derogatorily - I just mean that if you're that accepting of whatever happens, whatever you're asked to do, then there is no filter. At all.

This is how the Jim Jones's and David Koresh's of the world gain power over people.

If you're implying that I've never questioned my faith, then you're wrong. There have been a couple of bad times in my life when I have questioned what I truly believe, and in the end, I always come back to the same thing. Iam not and never have been the kind of person to "blindly follow" anything. If I felt that believing in God was such a ridiculous thing like so many of you seem to think, I wouldn't. Fact of the matter is, I see what the world is and I believe it was the work of God.

You come back to the same thing (the Christian God) because you determine that "there are things which are impossible for humans to understand"... therefore God. We can rephrase that any way we like:

There are things which are impossible for humans to understand... therefore Zeus.

There are things which are impossible for humans to understand... therefore Jupiter.

There are things which are impossible for humans to understand... therefore Horus.

There are things which are impossible for humans to understand... therefore Xenu.

There are things which are impossible for humans to understand... therefore The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

We can go on and on with the literally thousands of examples of gods throughout history. Each god has the same - or greater - documentation as the Christian God, each god has multitudes of believers, each god has had documented interactions with Man. We can go on and on with the literally thousands of creation myths, the multitude of resurrected deity myths, the multitude of virgin birth myths. None of the myths that comprise Christianity are unique. None of them are independently verifiable - or, to put it another way, none are more verifiable than any other religion.

You cannot conclusively state that you believe what you believe because of any other reason than any other religious person believes what they believe - even if it's a person of a diametrically different religion.

You may look at that and think to yourself - no big deal. But nothing in any of this says your god is different than any other god. Only your belief - a belief which you could very easily have if you were Jewish, Muslim, Roman, Greek, etc.

Further, your belief in your god comes from nothing first-hand. You have not met your god. You have never seen your god. You attribute things to your god which could, by examples given, be attributed with equal conviction to Xenu, Jupiter or Cit-Bolon-Tum (the Mayan god of healing, who may very well be responsible for the miraculous healing in the OP).

Now, all of this being the case (and it manifestly is), you cannot state that you come back to God because of anything other than blindly following him.

If you do not recognize the dangers of such blind faith, that's on you. As long as you don't bother me with your faith, I won't bother you.

 

[T_O_Bull]

So if we don't have disease and to some extent war what do we have? Every piece of dry land on Earth would be inhabited and your neighbors would be so close to you that you couldn't turn around.

T_O_B

 

[knapplc]

But, he's 'God', with control over everything. Wouldn't he be able to alter anything as he chooses and it would be OK? It doesn't matter if destroying every bacteria would result in mass extinctions, because 'God' could hypothetically divert this issue, if he really has as much control as some people insinuate.

What you're saying, though, supports my idea that 'God' doesn't have control. If he really does, it's vastly unfair and at odds with the world.

Exactly. But then we would find evidence for God acting as a puppet. We would be able to say, here is how things worked. Now we're free of disease, hooray! But all of this other stuff isn't acting like it should given the circumstances. Therefore, God must exist. I'm just pointing out how if God is a puppet who controls everything, then he's sure putting the universe on cruise control right now. If he was messing around with our everyday lives we would have evidence for him pulling the puppet strings - there would be things that just wildly wouldn't add up.

I don't get where you're coming up with God-as-puppet. God would be the puppet master in your scenario - controlling everything to such a degree that no disease, no bacteria, nothing at all can harm Man.

In fact, this is exactly what Christians believe. God controls everything in Heaven to such a degree that nothing bad ever happens there - in fact, "bad" is the antithesis of Heaven. Heaven being the ultimate goal of Christians, God can be nothing but a puppet master.

Enhance is correct - an omnipotent God is fully capable of eliminating all "bad" from Earth right now. Since overbreeding, overpopulation, disease, etc are bad, they would not happen here if chose for them not to happen. They do happen - therefore God chooses to allow them to happen. If he does not choose this, and they just happen, he is not omnipotent.

 

[It'sNotAFakeID]

Shark, if God picks and chooses who he heals and condemns those who he doesn't to suffering, isn't that essentially an evil act, something very not God like?

 

[HuskerShark]

Shark, if God picks and chooses who he heals and condemns those who he doesn't to suffering, isn't that essentially an evil act, something very not God like?

I'm not sure what crevasse on your body you pulled that reasoning from...

 

[Enhance]

Shark, as I posted above, denying your child an ice cream cone and choosing whether or not to cure a person's cancer are two very, very different things. They're vastly incomparable.

1) maybe you are overestimating the significance of life.

2) maybe you need to accept the fact that there are so many things that are impossible for our human minds to understand.

I appreciate life more-so than many people, maybe even you, in fact. Life itself is a miracle in all of its forms, when you consider just how intricate different species are, and how we grow from the tiniest of cells into living, breathing organisms. That, my friend, is amazing. I don't think I can fully explain to anyone how much I truly appreciate life.

I'm actually baffled that you're under the impression I can't accept there are things impossible for human minds to understand. It's becoming more and more obvious that you're so absorbed in your religious views that you're not even fully considering mine. I'm not saying you should convert, obviously, but every single thing I've said directly contradicts what you just said I should do.

Every single thing I've said dating back through this thread, and others, throws mud on the idea that ANYBODY has all the answers. I never specifically say I'm right, I've never once said I have all the answers, and I've never once said the world is as simple as an rgb color wheel, which is what you're insinuating. I've been merely defending my position and questioning your own because, in all honesty, I find your perceptions and faiths idiotic. I'm trying to more fully understand your position, which is difficult when you (like many others) fall back on the "it's just what I believe" thread of argument. Although I know you'll take that personally, I don't mean it to be an attack on you, just on the belief system itself.

 

[It'sNotAFakeID]

Shark, if God picks and chooses who he heals and condemns those who he doesn't to suffering, isn't that essentially an evil act, something very not God like?

I'm not sure what crevasse on your body you pulled that reasoning from...

The same one that you pull a lot of your reasoning from--your mind.

Seriously, this is a question coming from an agnostic individual to an individual who follows his religion, and that is the best response you can give me. Thanks for the help.

Different sort of related question: because I have a different view of religion than you, do you view me as less human?

 

[JJ Husker]

Some random responses to prior posts.

When I use the term non-believer, it in no way indicates that I believe non-believers are necessarily wrong or dumb. I have no idea what experiences or knowledge they've had. I may think I am right in my beliefs but that doesn't mean I think people that don't agree with me are wrong. It is not a 2+2=4 type of issue.

knapp- I cannot prove Jedi don't exist. Neither you nor I can prove God does or doesn't exist. But, there is no burden of proof that believers have to fulfill. If human understanding, the anecdotal evidence, some missing crucial scientific evidence, and logic lead us to different conclusions about the existence of a God, I have nothing more to offer. It is our choice to believe as we see fit. You can say the burden of proof is the believers to bear but we both know that is not applicable in this discussion. The very nature of a God really prohibits any hard evidence that would meet any scientific criteria. I won't say your right or wrong and you probably should not say I am right or wrong but you are free to do either. I am aware of the problems associated with my beliefs and not being able to prove them to others. It's kind of funny. My story about being cured and my mother are the absolute truth (even though they have been referred to as only anecdotal evidence) but my default position on the OP's claim of being healed is much the same as others with mine. I assume some natural cause was more likely than God curing him. This from me who knows God could cure him. Kind of ironic huh? I think people who ask for proof of God's existence are exactly the same as those who claim he exists with no proof to offer. I think it is simply human nature to stick with what you already believe to be true until hard information is presented that makes you change your mind. It may not be fair to flip the question and ask for proof he doesn't exist but I do feel, in this issue, it is the same thing. Look at it this way, if it was possible to prove it, there would be no need to prove it. If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it make any noise? Prove it.

Free will and God's actions in our lives-

We have free will. Our choices affect everything about our lives. God's ability and choices to either cure us or not do not affect that one iota. The puppet master idea of God is ludicrous in my book. I too struggle with why God allows so much pain and suffering to exist on this earth. One of my parents died of cancer in their low 60's. The other died of an extremely rare condition in their early 50's. Both had more than their share of pain and suffering associated with their demise. I have a neighbor and friend whose 18 year old daughter died of an inoperable brain tumor. Absolute sweetest girl you would ever meet. I still struggle with that one even moreso than my parents. I understand the feelings that lead one to think that, if there is a God, he must be cold, uncaring, or not very powerful or non-existent. I get it. But I also believe there are things worse than dying; worse than earthly pain or suffering. If we could live healthily forever, I might feel differently but we are all bound to die, and many of us will suffer before it happens. Facts of life. I don't presume to know why he acts or fails to act on many of these issues but I do know you cannot experience good without bad, happiness without sadness, the joy of victory without the agony of defeat, etc. Why would or should God eliminate pain and suffering on earth? My answer is I kind of figure that is what heaven is for. If I didn't have that as a central part of my life, I really could not deal with it. In a way I admire those of you who can get up every morning without sharing what I believe because I don't know how you do it. I need that purpose to give my existence meaning. It doesn't even matter to me if I'm wrong. That is why I don't have to prove anything.

 

[The Dude]

I see the point knapplc was making with the Jedi thing is still whooshing over people's heads.

 

[tschu]

I could make a post about physics and quantum mechanics and blow your minds on the whole free will issue (no, seriously)

 

[knapplc]

I could make a post about physics and quantum mechanics and blow your minds on the whole free will issue (no, seriously)

I've likely heard it before.

 

[HuskerShark]

Shark, if God picks and chooses who he heals and condemns those who he doesn't to suffering, isn't that essentially an evil act, something very not God like?

I'm not sure what crevasse on your body you pulled that reasoning from...

The same one that you pull a lot of your reasoning from--your mind.

Seriously, this is a question coming from an agnostic individual to an individual who follows his religion, and that is the best response you can give me. Thanks for the help.

Different sort of related question: because I have a different view of religion than you, do you view me as less human?

No. If you get that impression, I'm sorry.

But if you really want an answer to your original question, my answer would be no. That is a horrible interpretation of the Christian God and many Gods from other religions I'm sure as well.

 

[HuskerShark]

Shark, as I posted above, denying your child an ice cream cone and choosing whether or not to cure a person's cancer are two very, very different things. They're vastly incomparable.

1) maybe you are overestimating the significance of life.

2) maybe you need to accept the fact that there are so many things that are impossible for our human minds to understand.

I appreciate life more-so than many people, maybe even you, in fact. Life itself is a miracle in all of its forms, when you consider just how intricate different species are, and how we grow from the tiniest of cells into living, breathing organisms. That, my friend, is amazing. I don't think I can fully explain to anyone how much I truly appreciate life.

I'm actually baffled that you're under the impression I can't accept there are things impossible for human minds to understand. It's becoming more and more obvious that you're so absorbed in your religious views that you're not even fully considering mine. I'm not saying you should convert, obviously, but every single thing I've said directly contradicts what you just said I should do.

Every single thing I've said dating back through this thread, and others, throws mud on the idea that ANYBODY has all the answers. I never specifically say I'm right, I've never once said I have all the answers, and I've never once said the world is as simple as an rgb color wheel, which is what you're insinuating. I've been merely defending my position and questioning your own because, in all honesty, I find your perceptions and faiths idiotic. I'm trying to more fully understand your position, which is difficult when you (like many others) fall back on the "it's just what I believe" thread of argument. Although I know you'll take that personally, I don't mean it to be an attack on you, just on the belief system itself.

I get what you're saying about everything, and I respect your opinion/beliefs but I have to say your perception of me is pretty wrong.