The Cult of Trump & other false loyalties

TGHusker

TGHusker

New member
First off sorry for the length of this.  I have some thought I felt I wanted to get off my chest.  :boxosoap

Below is my post from the P&R Tangent thread.  I wanted to take that post  and spring board it to a bigger topic.  The issue of making politics or political loyalty a litmus test for truth, patriotism and orthodoxy as well as orthopraxy  (definitions below). It seems to me that in our current political environment, loyalty to a person or party comes before the practice of 'right thinking' and 'right actions/living'.    What I have seen since Trump began his campaign to the present day, is the action of a cult leader.  Prior to his election, we could excuse his hubris for that of a self centered media grabbing personality.  But as President, we are placed in the situation where his narcissistic personalty is really an obstacle and even a danger for progress of our country.   Trump is not the first political cult leader nor will he be the last.  But I will have to say he is the first that I can think of in my life time (my first vote was in 1976 - I'm old) or at least the first to rise to this level.  I can name a list a mile long of statements and events (some noted in the quote below) which can back me up but I want to state a few issues that bring me to the point of great alarm for the health of our nation.  

1. His affect on Evangelical Christians.   As one myself, I am greatly disturbed by how Trump has captured so many in the church.  I don't blame it on Trump - that is his nature to use people or groups of people to get what he wants. I blame the pastors, leaders of Christian churches who have allowed Trump to capture their loyalty and those sitting in the pews because he (Trump) supports their pro-life positions and the appointment of pro-life judges.  I too want pro-life judges but at what expense.  So now we have church leaders excusing Trump's bad behavior or ignoring it by their silence so as to not lose their golden egg laying duck.   The Church cannot be salt to the world, cannot speak out about injustice if their loyalty is to the one who may be at the center of unjust actions or unlawful acts.   Their silence is deafening after the Cohen testimony.  The loyalty of the church should be to Christ alone and His word.  Support what can be supported by scripture and renounce what cannot be. Render to God what is God's and render to Cesar (govt) what is Cesar's.  But loyalty should never be shared.  These have lost their eternal perspective for a temporary position at the political table.

2.  His capture of the GOP.  As a conservative I see Trump corrupting the GOP in a way that makes it unrecognizable to those of us who are old enough to have embraced Ronald Reagan and voted for him for president.   Reagan would not recognize the party and would have left this form of Republicanism if he were alive today. Not sure where he would go - In the same way I feel I don't have a landing place other than independent.  However, Trump's capture of the GOP was the capture of a willing participant.  The GOP started down this path after Obama was elected.  Trump was the first one to really articulate it well enough to capture national attention. 

3.   Political conversation - I've touched on this in the quote below - but Trump has poisoned the well of our community political conversation.  While he isn't the first, he is the most over the top in the modern era of politics.  His attack language, lies, and falsehoods have deeply wounded political discourse in our nation.  His "Fake News" claims have left millions doubting the reliably of the press and its ability to speak the truth.    If we cannot have a healthy conversation, we can not live as a healthy nation nor solve problems in a way that benefits all. 

4.  Justice - whether we talk about legal justice or social justice - the nation is at risk because of Trump's actions.  Legal Justice: for most thinking people, it is apparent that Trump Inc was /is  not different than a mafia organization. The way he ran the business and the way he does politics, Trump comes across as nothing less than a mob boss.  Some people say he just 'says it as it is'  'he is bold' etc. No-he is a manipulator.  Social justice - his defense of white supremacists at Charlottesville, his comments about immigrants and Muslims shows a side of him that does not belong in the WH.   Yes, I believe in border security and legal immigration but his attitude as reflected in his comments tells me he is not fit to be president for all of the cultures we have in the USA.  His tone and rhetoric is divisive and does not unite the country for the common good.  He is the president of his supporters and no one else.  He doesn't seem to mind not being president of all Americans as he seems to see the 51% that voted against him as opponents or enemies.  Whoever is not for him is against him and should be assaulted verbally - this seems to be his motto in life.

or·tho·dox


Dictionary result for orthodox


/ˈôrTHəˌdäks/

adjective
adjective: orthodox; adjective: Orthodox


  1. 1.


    (of a person or their views, especially religious or political ones, or other beliefs or practices) conforming to what is generally or traditionally accepted as right or true; established and approved.








orthopraxy    noun

  • Rightness of action (as distinct from or in addition to rightness of thought); right-doing, practical righteousness; correct practice.

We are seeing an example of the Cult of Trump in action here.  Nothing personal here Shelback but I think you have some shell shock going on here. You may have been shocked by the actions of the previous admin because it deeply violated your cultural sensitivities, but you are showing signs of belonging to a cult - denial, misrepresentation of the facts, conspiracy, etc.

When I was in college I saw some good friends get entangled into a cult and many are still in the same group.  A cult can be political as well.  When we start closing our ears to others and do not consider the views of others and esp the views of those who are on the opposite side of the coin, we are at risk.  It doesn't mean we have to believe like others but it is more a matter of being open for the purpose of understanding.    Some of these same characteristics from the article below  can be found in the Cult of Trump.  My comments are in red.

https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-in-a-cult-1921eb5a3857

Cults aren’t as easy to spot as you might think. Most cults don’t wear robes or live in communes. In fact, most cult members don’t even realize they’re in a cult.

During my 25 years as an unwitting cult member, I would often watch documentaries and read about other cults. As I researched, I noticed 10 specific patterns that helped me recognize that I myself was in a cult:

1. The leader is the ultimate authority
If you’re not allowed to criticize your leader, even if the criticism is true, you’re probably in a cult. 

Cults begin with a charismatic leader who claims some supreme knowledge. They may call themselves a prophet, messiah, messenger, or an enlightened teacher. They can also be CEOs, military officials, politicians, and self-help gurus.

Cult leaders convince members to forfeit their critical thinking ability in return for a sense of belonging, authority, and purpose. To members, it doesn’t matter what the evidence or logic may suggest, the leader is always right, and their misdeeds are always justified. Criticism of the leader is forbidden.

This fits Trump to a "T".  He cannot be criticized.  All news is fake news unless it is Fox News as long as Fox News reports it the way he wants it.  Trump's MO is to cut people down who oppose him and he will do so pro-activiely, un-provoked by his target. 

2. The group suppresses skepticism
If you’re only allowed to study your organization through approved sources, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults view critical thinking as an infectious disease and every effort is made to suppress it. Doubting members are encouraged to isolate themselves from outside influences and focus solely on the doctrine of the cult.

Criticism is forbidden. People who contradict the group are viewed as persecutors and are often given labels like “anti,” “apostate,” or “suppressive person.” Members are discouraged from consuming any material that is critical of the group.

What is true of Trump is true of Trump supporters. They do not consider the evidence, regardless of how overwhelming it may be.  Ex-supporters who wise up, are beaten verbally for leaving the group and presenting the inside story of what it was like being in the cult.  Trump supports do not confront the facts being presented but confront the messenger - the former Trump supporter.  The GOP in the resent hearings wt Cohen was a prime example.  They could not destroy the facts so they sought to discredit the messenger. That was their full defense. Worse off, they should have been seeking truth.  But Cult members don't seek truth when they think they have all of the truth already. 

3. The group delegitimizes former members
If you can’t think of a legitimate reason for leaving your group, you’re probably in a cult.

Because the cult considers itself the ultimate authority on truth, it can’t imagine anybody leaving it with their integrity intact. Thus, it has to perpetuate a false narrative that former members were deceived, proud, immoral, or lazy.

If former members speak out, they are dismissed as bitter, angry, dishonest or evil. Cults often impose some kind of shunning to shame former members and prevent them from infecting other members with the truth.

See my comments in # 2 above.   More on the GOP.  As most of you know, I was a lifer GOP (except that one vote for Sen McGovern in the SD senate race in 1976).  I was never so ashamed of the GOP as I was watching the Cohen testimony.  They should have been asking questions that got to the truth - they could have done so without trying to destroy Cohen as a person. 

4. The group is paranoid about the outside world
If your group insists the end of the world is near, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults position themselves as the sole refuge from an evil outside world that is intent on their destruction. Cults thrive on conspiracy theories, catastrophic thinking, and persecution complexes.

In an effort to draw in more paying members, cults are often very aggressive in their recruitment efforts which are usually justified as “saving” people from the evil world. Those who reject the cult’s message are unelect, prideful, evil, or stupid.

Trump at the GOP convention sets himself up as the "only one' who can solve today's problems.  The 'only one' who can fix the swamp.  So not only does Trump have this "Messiah" complex but his supporters build this complex up every day. Trump wants to save all of us from immigrants, legal or illegal, from all of the bad deals that all of the previous presidents have made, etc.  While I believe in a border wall of some kind and that security must be a part of immigration reform, Trump has made the wall the holy grail of his admin.  It must be protected at all cost for it is protecting us from the mean world outside of those walls.   

5. The group relies on shame cycles
If you need your group in order to feel worthy, loved, or sufficient, you’re probably in a cult.

Cult leaders trap members in shame cycles by imposing abnormally strict codes of conduct (usually prescriptions about diet, appearance, sex, relationships, media), guilting members for their shortcomings, and then positioning themselves as the unique remedy to the feelings of guilt which they themselves created.

Cult members are made to believe they are insufficient or unworthy on their own and that the only way to become worthy is to confess their shortcomings to the group or leader. The leader then becomes the meditiator of worthiness and the foundation of the member’s self esteem.

Leaders who can make followers feel bad about anything can use shame to manipulate followers into doing anything, even if it’s against their own self-interest or better judgment.

Some of us come from conservative families and we have conservative friends - and we too are conservative.  However, I know @BigRedBuster has commented on this before, it is difficult to talk to family and friends, even as a conservative about Trump.  Never Trumpers who may agree with some of Trump's policies are shamed because they don't believe in the Cult leader himself.  If we dare point out his unfitness for the office (too many things to mentioned on that now), his unprofessionalism, his lack of seriousness, and his ethical deficiencies (and criminality), we are immediately shamed and labeled as infidels. 

6. The leader is above the law
If you’re held to a different moral standard, specifically in regard to sex, you’re probably in a cult.

A prevalent idea among cult leaders is that they are above the law, be it human or divine. This idea allows them to exploit their followers economically and sexually without repercussions.

When confronted, they do not confess, but create justifications for their impropriety. Sexual grooming of members is common. Loyal cult members will perform any amount of “mental gymnastics” to justify or ignore the leader’s behavior.

Really do I need to comment on this :dunno   This is all to evident to anyone with an open mind.  I added the bold to the 'without repercussions.  The way Trump did business, the way he did his taxes, his foundation, his family life/marriages -  The fact that he said he never had a reason to ask for forgiveness (in response to a question during the election if he's asked God for forgiveness).  Nothing more needs to be said.

7. The group uses “thought reform” methods
If your serious questions are answered with cliches, you’re probably in a cult.

Indoctrination or “brainwashing” is the process through which a cult slowly breaks down a person’s sense of identity and ability to think rationally. Behaviors like excessive fasting, prayer, hypnosis, scripture reading, chanting, meditation, or drug usage can all be used to increase a person’s vulnerability to the leader’s suggestions.

The hallmark of indoctrination is the use of thought-terminating cliches. Platitudes like “follow the leader” or “doubt your doubts” are regurgitated over and over so that members don’t have to critically analyze complex issues.

Critical analysis skills are greatly missing wt Trump followers. They don't have to believe the more liberal side of the press.  They don't have to leave their conservative political convictions to be able to analyze what is going on.  They just have to be independent thinkers - free of the cult propaganda handed down by Trump, FoxNews etc.

8. The group is elitist
If your group is the solution for all the world’s problems, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults see themselves as the enlightened, chosen, and elect organization tasked with radically transforming individual lives and the entire world.

This elitism creates greater sense of group unity and responsibility centered on a united purpose. However, this sense of responsibility is often manipulated by cult leaders who coerce members into risky financial behavior, sexual favors, free manual labor, or heightened recruitment efforts in order to “further the cause.”

See # 4 above.  Trump says and thinks no one can solve today's problems but himself.  He portrays himself as the smartest man in the room (how many times has  he said how great he is or how he is smarter than all of the generals, etc - beyond counting).  The Cult also portrays Trump policies (doctrines of faith) as the only way to solve our problems. 

9. There is no financial transparency
If you’re not allowed to know what the group does with their money, you’re probably in a cult.

A group that refuses to disclose its finances is a huge red flag. Ethical organizations have nothing to hide. Cult leaders tend to live opulently while their followers are required to make financial sacrifices. Members are often encouraged to pay their offerings even if it means putting their families at risk.

Where are those Trump income tax reports :dunno .  Enough said.  Yet Trump is above the law (# 6 above) so they aren't released and since he has a cult following, no one inside his cult demands the release since they aren't practicing critical thinking skills.  And besides the Cult leader cannot be questioned.

10. The group performs secret rites
If there are secret teachings or ceremonies you didn’t discover until after you joined, you’re probably in a cult.

Cults use secret rituals as rites of passage that solidify a member’s loyalty to the group. Initiation into these rites usually only comes after a member has undergone certain tests or made adequate financial contributions.

Often, cult initiations are confusing, bizarre, or even offensive. This mental dissonance between their sense of confusion and their loyalty to the “inner circle” convinces the initiate to double their efforts in order to properly appreciate the proceedings. This only further entrenches them in a shame cycle, making them even more susceptible to manipulation.

Maybe anything MAGA, that hand gesture.   I haven't seen a Nazi salute yet    but if he is re-elected who knows what will occur.  Also, if he isn't reelected, what will be the response of his admin and his followers - I can see it being challenged and Trump refusing to leave the office. 
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A lot of the problems outlined in the OP stem from having a team mentality toward politics. Politicians and political parties cultivate this idea for their own benefit, and the country as a whole pays the price. People adhere themselves to a particular party or politician, everyone else is "them," and there's no thought beyond that.

It's why the country is so polarized. People value their opinion over fact. Then they seek out facts that conform to that opinion. It's bass-ackwards and frustrating to deal with.

 
54 minutes ago, Fru said:

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this is unbelievable  - but not surprising.  Most cult members will reject the traditional/the known/ in favor of their all knowing cult leader.   Drain the swamp is also an expression of this very same attitude. We know better because we are better and because we were the destined ones to make things better.

 
knapplc said:
A lot of the problems outlined in the OP stem from having a team mentality toward politics. Politicians and political parties cultivate this idea for their own benefit, and the country as a whole pays the price. People adhere themselves to a particular party or politician, everyone else is "them," and there's no thought beyond that.

It's why the country is so polarized. People value their opinion over fact. Then they seek out facts that conform to that opinion. It's bass-ackwards and frustrating to deal with.
Click to expand...
I agree Knapp  - I'm glad you brought that up as I was thinking of it and forgot to note it.  We all want our team to win and politics has become a contact sport and we need to take the other guy out instead of listening to what he has to say. 

 
As if on cue, I stumbled across this article talking about the 'cult of personality' that Trump exhibits and the fact that his followers over look his broken promises because 'he tried'. 

In Trump's world  - Trying is equal to accomplishment.   Illusion = progress

 I copied this from the larger quote below. I think it perfectly describes a Cult leader.  He finds out the needs of the people (grievance candidate ) and builds a campaign centered on capitalizing on those grievances.   So what was happening in 2015/16.  We have large surges of immigration - people felt threatened by the incoming 'throngs'  of people who are going to

'take away our jobs'.   Trump capitalizes by beating the drum about illegal and legal immigration, about returning jobs by pushing tariffs, etc.  While Bill Clinton 'feels your pain' Trump promised to end the pain.  And as the last statement below says, his followers won't punish him for failure because 'he tried'.   His hubris is moving that ball under the cup pretty hard and fast all to keep people from noticing that the 'emperor has no clothing'. 




“Trump is a grievance candidate, and I think that's the base of the support he has,” said Stuart Stevens, a longtime Republican strategist who helped guide Mitt Romney’s 2012 presidential campaign and has been consistently critical of Trump.



"We have a Republican president who's spent a lot of his presidency attacking the Constitution, attacking law and order, attacking the whole concept of personal responsibility,” Stevens said. “He’s soft on dictators and a professional victim. But it just makes people feel that whatever score they need settled, he's going to settle it.”



Yascha Mounk, a professor at the John Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies in Washington and an expert on the worldwide rise of populism, believes it’s foolish to expect the president’s backers to punish him for overpromising and underdelivering.



“I don’t see why it would happen if it hasn’t yet,” Mounk said, though he noted that a severe economic downturn or other unexpected calamitous event could change that calculus.



“People are perfectly aware he lies all the time and that he boasts and probably delivers only on a fraction of those things. But because so many Americans have become deeply cynical and think that no politician ever delivers on their promises, they may discount what he promises but still think that that is a better bet than politicians who don't promise anything.”



Mounk added, “It’s essentially, ‘Well, he didn’t really bring back manufacturing jobs, but he tried.’”
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https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-claims-progress-for-promises-unfulfilled-20190305-story.html

Copied in part here:


Yet for the president’s most ardent supporters, the lack of results on his most prominent promises, and his hyperbole, may not matter given the cult of personality Trump has created around himself.



That was evident in the warm embrace he received Saturday from attendees at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference. Trump spoke for more than two hours in the longest address of his presidency, veering wildly off script, basking in the crowd’s applause and cheers, vastly overstating his achievements and explaining away his failures.



Less than 24 hours after his walkout at the Vietnam summit, he complained that he’s been given no credit for initiating talks — talks, begun at the leaders’ first meeting last year in Singapore, which have prompted North Korea to pause its nuclear tests but also have elevated Kim on the world stage without any concrete steps toward dismantling his nation’s nuclear program.



“In the last days of the Obama administration, rockets were flying all over the place. Nuclear testing was going on,” Trump said, an exaggeration that ignored North Korea’s repeated successful test fires during his own first year as president.



The president also boasted to the CPAC crowd that his escalation of a trade war brought China to the negotiating table, and to the brink of concessions. Anticipating a trade agreement that could be sealed during a meeting with Xi at Mar-a-Lago later this month, Trump promised that tariffs between the two countries would fall to “zero and zero.”



Yet even if the men reach a deal that allows Trump to lift the tariffs so unpopular with his rural supporters, it is widely considered unlikely to include any enforceable end to China’s practice of requiring American companies to transfer technology and intellectual property to Chinese partners as a condition of doing business in the country.



Trump wrote in his book “The Art of the Deal” that he “plays to people’s fantasies.” He still does.



“You know I'm building the wall,” he said to supporters at CPAC, who immediately broke into familiar chants of “Build the wall!” He went on: “We're finishing the wall. We got a lot of money. It's in the thing.”



By “thing” the president apparently was alluding to a spending bill that he’d reluctantly signed, to end a 35-day partial government shutdown he’d provoked by his standoff with Democrats over wall money. Yet the bill included just $1.375 billion to construct new bollard fencing on 55 miles of the U.S.-Mexico border — far short of the $5.7 billion he demanded. So far, the only construction underway has been repairs to existing stretches of wall, built under his predecessors.



Trump could successfully veto the emerging congressional resolution to reject his national emergency declaration, which is his attempt to divert as much as $8 billion for wall construction. Yet he would face strong legal challenges.



“He kind of talked himself into a corner in promoting the wall all the time and gave Democrats an opportunity to stymie him just by refusing to pay for a wall,” said Mark Krikorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies.



Krikorian, whose group supports more restrictive immigration policies and thus is allied with Trump on some issues, disagrees with the president’s portrayal of a wall as critical to border security.



The president felt he had to declare a national emergency “because he has made the wall such a high-profile objective,” Krikorian said. “It's important, but it’s not job one and it’s certainly not the reason we have a crisis at the border.”



Such rebuttals would have been lost on the crowd at CPAC, or among Trump’s supporters generally.



“That crowd was rooting for him,” said Matt Schlapp, chairman of the American Conservative Union and organizer of CPAC, who likened the president’s long speech to a “conversation among friends.”



“If you love Trump, as 95% of the people in that audience do, it was a very emotion-laden experience,” he said.



Among Republicans, Trump’s support stands at an astonishing 90%, according to latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll released Sunday. His overall job-approval rating had ticked up slightly to 46% following a dip after the shutdown and emergency declaration last month. A separate Quinnipiac University poll released Tuesday put his job-approval rating at 38%, the same level of its poll in January.



While the president already is making “Promises kept” a slogan of his reelection campaign, Schlapp said Trump’s supporters are likely to give him the benefit of the doubt if some big promises remain unfulfilled.



“Maybe 50% of Americans look at Donald Trump as struggling to accomplish things, but the other 50% looks at him as willing to take on challenges other presidents weren't,” he said.



Throughout his presidency, Trump has toggled between taking credit and passing blame — often declaring, especially on Twitter, that “progress is being made” on issues while complaining about “obstructionist” Democrats fighting his agenda and “fake news” media not giving him credit.



“Trump is a grievance candidate, and I think that's the base of the support he has,” said Stuart Stevens, a longtime Republican strategist who helped guide Mitt Romney’s 2012 presidential campaign and has been consistently critical of Trump.



"We have a Republican president who's spent a lot of his presidency attacking the Constitution, attacking law and order, attacking the whole concept of personal responsibility,” Stevens said. “He’s soft on dictators and a professional victim. But it just makes people feel that whatever score they need settled, he's going to settle it.”



Yascha Mounk, a professor at the John Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies in Washington and an expert on the worldwide rise of populism, believes it’s foolish to expect the president’s backers to punish him for overpromising and underdelivering.



“I don’t see why it would happen if it hasn’t yet,” Mounk said, though he noted that a severe economic downturn or other unexpected calamitous event could change that calculus.



“People are perfectly aware he lies all the time and that he boasts and probably delivers only on a fraction of those things. But because so many Americans have become deeply cynical and think that no politician ever delivers on their promises, they may discount what he promises but still think that that is a better bet than politicians who don't promise anything.”



Mounk added, “It’s essentially, ‘Well, he didn’t really bring back manufacturing jobs, but he tried.’”
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Obama says he believes the nomination of Sarah Palin paved the way for Trump.  He says that is when the mainstream Reps lost control of the party.

That is a very interesting take and has some strong validity to it.  I've never heard anyone approach it from that angle before. 

I would add that the Tea Party movement probably did the same if not more so.   It was really a grievance reaction to many things going on at the time - bank bailouts under GWB and the huge stimulus package and Obamacare spending under Obama.  All of this led to the election of Reps - controlling the House in 2012 and eventually the Senate. Then 2016 occurred.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6776169/Obama-complains-leaders-beat-chest.html

During a question and answer session with board president Iain Black of the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade held at the Vancouver Convention Centre, Obama elaborated on the tie between Palin's vice presidential run and Trump as Commander in Chief.

He noted Palin's presence gave voice to populist elements in the Republican party, opening the way for Trump's rise. 

'John McCain's decision to nominate Sarah Palin as his running mate will be seen as an important point in American politics,' he said.

That, he said, was the moment 'mainstream Republicans lost control of their party... Sarah Palin's nomination suddenly brought that populist energy to the fore in the Republican Party and helped pave the way for President Trump's presidency.'  
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knapplc said:
A lot of the problems outlined in the OP stem from having a team mentality toward politics. Politicians and political parties cultivate this idea for their own benefit, and the country as a whole pays the price. People adhere themselves to a particular party or politician, everyone else is "them," and there's no thought beyond that.

It's why the country is so polarized. People value their opinion over fact. Then they seek out facts that conform to that opinion. It's bass-ackwards and frustrating to deal with.
Click to expand...




Yep. Just like with sports, people view things calls differently based on which team/party they’re from unless they are making a point to try to view things neutrally. Everyone is at least somewhat guilty of this (independents less so) but in order to support Trump you have to be very guilty of it. In order to support Trump while being Christian... I don’t think there’s a word in the dictionary for it.

I’ve read some research on how TV commercials can influence people (including people who think they can’t be manipulated) and it’s not surprising that Fox can have such a strong grip on people. I know people who seem really smart when I talk to them and have to be pretty smart based on what jobs they have, but they believe everything they see on Fox and it’s incredible that it could happen to them.

Most of the ones I know are in their 50s and 60s. They likely started watching Fox 20 years ago because they were hearing things they didn’t want to hear about the Republican party (again, back to the whole team thing), and trusted Fox to be what they said they were, a news channel.

 
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^^^  I think the 'speed of change' has caught many in my generation off guard.  So we reach for the known and the safe.  Too many found Trump as the known and he capitalized on it by  trying to calm their fears of change  with rhetoric that made them feel safe.    First he stroked the fear and then he presented his ideas to make them safe - wt the adder that 'he was the only one in DC who could do so'.  messiah complex 

 
@TGHusker I thought of you when Buttigieg said this.   He's a really sharp guy, that in my opinion should be getting more looks.  He is one of few that seems to have a well thought out agenda and opinion on things.  


 
NM11046 said:
@TGHusker I thought of you when Buttigieg said this.   He's a really sharp guy, that in my opinion should be getting more looks.  He is one of few that seems to have a well thought out agenda and opinion on things.  
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Excellent.  That is my bone to pick also -  Pence had a 'coming to Trump' moment (notice I didn't say coming to Jesus moment) after that Access Hollywood video came out.  That was his moment to make a critical decision IMHO.  Stand with the Gospel or as Pete says go wt the immoral candidate and be the loyal 'party member'.  As you recall - Pence went into 'hiding' for a couple of days after the video came out.  I believe, don't have proof, that GOP leaders pressured and bribed him to stay on the ticket to save the party and the nation from the election of Hillary. Perhaps the GOP leaders thought that Trump may not last and that Pence would then step into the oval office after Trump left in scandal.  Alas that hasn't occurred yet  - but by Pence's silence on so many issues surrounding Trump I think he is just playing the good, loyal supporter until the path clears for him wt Trump's removal. 

I need to study this guy.  Very smart and insightful.  I do like what he said about the Gospel.  

 
I am really a fan of Mayor Pete.  As more people learn about him I think he will be a strong contender.  Ill try to find a convo I heard him have about conservative/liberal/socialist cuz I found it succint and intuitive 

 
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