Hey i know how Jesus was able to walk on water

[Landlord]

Yes and written about 70 years after the event.

Ah, so you know for a fact that the original autograph wasn't written by someone at the time it happened?

you do know they can date the pages right?

Did you intentionally dodge the point I made?

Edit: "Date the pages?" Maybe it's just the way that you phrased that, but it sounds pretty elementary. Yes, I'm aware that organic material can be dated, using semi-accurate methods. Generally though, with documents that are roughly 2000 years old & newer, they aren't carbon dated. The method of "dating" that is used is more contextual in nature. In other words, it's more on the side of literary/historical investigation in nature, rather than putting the "paper" (as you phrased it) under a microscope, so to speak. Secondly, the age of the medium is inconclusive; what if that paper was "50 years old" before it was written on...or reused?

That was also what I referred to with my comment about the original autograph. That's the term given to the original, first document. And that's the point about oral tradition, as well: It's hard to say who wrote the original autograph and exactly when it was written. But if the accounts are oral, it makes no difference. Also, no biblicist makes the claim that anyone is holding the original autograph in some museum that we can walk up to and carbon date. Nobody is making that claim. Where are the original autographs? Who knows. But just because an archaeologist doesn't have it in his hand, doesn't mean it wasn't written down earlier than the first "copy." That's the thing with copies; they're copies.

Point was that they can tell if someone is trying to pull a fast one on them. Of course no one has originals. Oral tradition will always be based on who you ask. While the main point would be the same the story itself would not be the same. We all know that the ancients liked to make things much bigger than they really were. Outside of the bible and a couple of writers jesus is practically unknown.

Yet He has had more influence on human history than any other man, group of men, army or kingdom in the history of the world. Not bad for an unknown guy in one of the most uneventful periods in documented history (until he showed up, that is).

 

[husker_99]

Yet He has had more influence on human history than any other man, group of men, army or kingdom in the history of the world. Not bad for an unknown guy in one of the most uneventful periods in documented history (until he showed up, that is).

Only because Emporer Constantine changed religions.

 

[Landlord]

Yet He has had more influence on human history than any other man, group of men, army or kingdom in the history of the world. Not bad for an unknown guy in one of the most uneventful periods in documented history (until he showed up, that is).

Only because Emporer Constantine changed religions.

Only reason, huh? Why would he do that? If there wasn't good reason to, I mean.

 

[husker_99]

Yet He has had more influence on human history than any other man, group of men, army or kingdom in the history of the world. Not bad for an unknown guy in one of the most uneventful periods in documented history (until he showed up, that is).

Only because Emporer Constantine changed religions.

Only reason, huh? Why would he do that? If there wasn't good reason to, I mean.

He was fighting a war when God told him if he put symbol(which would later become the cross) on his shield he would defeat an army twice the size of his.

 

[Hedley Lamarr]

Yet He has had more influence on human history than any other man, group of men, army or kingdom in the history of the world. Not bad for an unknown guy in one of the most uneventful periods in documented history (until he showed up, that is).

Only because Emporer Constantine changed religions.

Only reason, huh? Why would he do that? If there wasn't good reason to, I mean.

He was fighting a war when God told him if he put symbol(which would later become the cross) on his shield he would defeat an army twice the size of his.

Can you imagine what people would say if our President told us this?

 

[husker_99]

Yet He has had more influence on human history than any other man, group of men, army or kingdom in the history of the world. Not bad for an unknown guy in one of the most uneventful periods in documented history (until he showed up, that is).

Only because Emporer Constantine changed religions.

Only reason, huh? Why would he do that? If there wasn't good reason to, I mean.

He was fighting a war when God told him if he put symbol(which would later become the cross) on his shield he would defeat an army twice the size of his.

Can you imagine what people would say if our President told us this?

Oh you mean like Bush when invading Iraq? We were cool about it.

 

[Undone]

Outside of the bible and a couple of writers jesus is practically unknown.

The Bible is a collection of multiple works from multiple authors. Different people, writing different accounts of the same thing/theme. You're compartmentalizing it by modern standards (i.e., the book you hold in your hand as one single work). This doesn't seem like it should deserve being pointed out.

 

[husker_99]

Outside of the bible and a couple of writers jesus is practically unknown.

The Bible is a collection of multiple works from multiple authors. Different people, writing different accounts of the same thing/theme. You're compartmentalizing it by modern standards (i.e., the book you hold in your hand as one single work). This doesn't seem like it should deserve being pointed out.

Even so you would think he would gain more notoriety. It's not like people wrote extensive about him either. I mean the bible skips like 15 years of his life. What did he do for those 15 years?

 

[Landlord]

Outside of the bible and a couple of writers jesus is practically unknown.

The Bible is a collection of multiple works from multiple authors. Different people, writing different accounts of the same thing/theme. You're compartmentalizing it by modern standards (i.e., the book you hold in your hand as one single work). This doesn't seem like it should deserve being pointed out.

Even so you would think he would gain more notoriety. It's not like people wrote extensive about him either. I mean the bible skips like 15 years of his life. What did he do for those 15 years?

Here's the reality of the times, as far as I understand it. Constantine may have had a dream or vision that led to his adoption of Christianity, but all reliable records indicate it was very much a political move before it was anything else, because not just in Jerusalem and in Israel, but all across the empire, people were converting and spreading the news of Christ the savior of the world. The message and the movement was growing unfathomably fast and large all while remaining illegal and punishable by death.

His notoriety shook up the entire known world in a period of time where nothing was happening, and it "culminated", in some regards, with Constantine, but started well before then.

The lack of documentation of so many years of his life serves as evidence of the reliability of the gospels, if you ask me. If they were a fabrication, if they were a calculated political and revolutionary ploy, they would have taken much more care to address what would obviously have been some serious pitfalls. It's no secret that the story of Jesus Christ takes some reaching to believe at face value. Carpenter from hick-town, born to a whore teenager and an ashamed father, no record of his childhood, is actually God incarnate come to save the world as a begging, homeless servant, and rose from the dead? Surreeeee.

 

[HuskerShark]

Here's the reality of the times, as far as I understand it. Constantine may have had a dream or vision that led to his adoption of Christianity, but all reliable records indicate it was very much a political move before it was anything else, because not just in Jerusalem and in Israel, but all across the empire, people were converting and spreading the news of Christ the savior of the world. The message and the movement was growing unfathomably fast and large all while remaining illegal and punishable by death.

His notoriety shook up the entire known world in a period of time where nothing was happening, and it "culminated", in some regards, with Constantine, but started well before then.

The lack of documentation of so many years of his life serves as evidence of the reliability of the gospels, if you ask me. If they were a fabrication, if they were a calculated political and revolutionary ploy, they would have taken much more care to address what would obviously have been some serious pitfalls. It's no secret that the story of Jesus Christ takes some reaching to believe at face value. Carpenter from hick-town, born to a whore teenager and an ashamed father, no record of his childhood, is actually God incarnate come to save the world as a begging, homeless servant, and rose from the dead? Surreeeee.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, Landlord, but isn't the story that Joseph and Mary took Jesus to the mountains to hide? Isn't that where Jesus spent his childhood?

 

[Landlord]

Here's the reality of the times, as far as I understand it. Constantine may have had a dream or vision that led to his adoption of Christianity, but all reliable records indicate it was very much a political move before it was anything else, because not just in Jerusalem and in Israel, but all across the empire, people were converting and spreading the news of Christ the savior of the world. The message and the movement was growing unfathomably fast and large all while remaining illegal and punishable by death.

His notoriety shook up the entire known world in a period of time where nothing was happening, and it "culminated", in some regards, with Constantine, but started well before then.

The lack of documentation of so many years of his life serves as evidence of the reliability of the gospels, if you ask me. If they were a fabrication, if they were a calculated political and revolutionary ploy, they would have taken much more care to address what would obviously have been some serious pitfalls. It's no secret that the story of Jesus Christ takes some reaching to believe at face value. Carpenter from hick-town, born to a whore teenager and an ashamed father, no record of his childhood, is actually God incarnate come to save the world as a begging, homeless servant, and rose from the dead? Surreeeee.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, Landlord, but isn't the story that Joseph and Mary took Jesus to the mountains to hide? Isn't that where Jesus spent his childhood?

They went to Egypt, actually, to avoid the census and subsequent beheading of their baby, and also to fulfill prophecy, but Matthew says that they returned to Israel as soon as Herod had died.

 

[ZRod]

Yet He has had more influence on human history than any other man, group of men, army or kingdom in the history of the world. Not bad for an unknown guy in one of the most uneventful periods in documented history (until he showed up, that is).

You must be talking about Muhammad or Islam right?

 

[Hedley Lamarr]

Bottom line is that there is no eye witness accounts of Jesus. The bible is full of second and third hand accounts. We don't even possess the original documents just the copies of copies. None of these recollections were written down until decades after his death. People exaggerate to emphasize certain points. That is what the best story tellers do. Christianity started out as something for the poor that would lead them to a "better place" than sleeping next to their mule. It eventually became completely corrupt and a money machine. Why would "God" let that happen? Why would "God" let other religions come before his?

If Jesus did all of these miracles how do so many other religions not look to him for salvation? Why did he only expose himself to such a small portion of the world? Jesus wasn't even Christian.

 

[Undone]

I have a feeling that your level of interest in this topic is disingenuous, but I'll throw out a couple of important points nonetheless.

1. If you believe that the earliest known document in hand is a copy, that directly confirms that the original is at least one "copying" older. Again, this is so unremarkable to me that I don't understand why I'm even having to point it out. I'm not trying to come off as condescending here - I'm reiterating this point.

2. The typical viewpoint of the Biblical skeptic is that Jesus' mention of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in the book of Matthew (which is historically undeniable by non-Biblical sources and occurred in 70 A.D.) is some kind of empirical evidence that at least Matthew was written after 70 A.D. And I'm trying to keep this short, because I think that people actually read short posts. The point is though that this is admittedly prophecy, by the Biblical account. But here's the kicker - no other Gospel (let alone any other New Testament document) records or even alludes to the destruction of the temple, even though there are occasions in which a description of such would have been noteworthy.

That makes a pretty strong case these originals were actually written prior to 70 A.D. I could go on, but again, I see that the main contributors in this thread are more than likely acting disingenuously to the theme.

 

[Landlord]

Bottom line is that there is no eye witness accounts of Jesus. The bible is full of second and third hand accounts. We don't even possess the original documents just the copies of copies. None of these recollections were written down until decades after his death. People exaggerate to emphasize certain points. That is what the best story tellers do. Christianity started out as something for the poor that would lead them to a "better place" than sleeping next to their mule. It eventually became completely corrupt and a money machine. Why would "God" let that happen? Why would "God" let other religions come before his?

If Jesus did all of these miracles how do so many other religions not look to him for salvation? Why did he only expose himself to such a small portion of the world? Jesus wasn't even Christian.