What's the biggest reason for Blacks not advancing

[Creighton Duke]

I mean, we know what the deal is by this point. The proponents who are most "against" racism are actually the biggest proponents for it as they continue to point to perceived deficiencies as opposed to coming up with real ways to help the community in question. It's tired and cliche, but hey; that's what they are!

Really now? How much evidence do you need? I guess I'm being a proponent for racism by pointing out ways that African-Americans are not on equal standing in America and ways to fix it?

I think that your pointing out deficiencies and then giving a pass because that is how a particular group has been perceived and/or affected over time without offering ways to lift the group is concerning.

Changing the voting year isn't instilling greater civic duty or the sense of a responsibility to vote. Requiring that party affiliation be placed in front of a candidates name is not encouraging further personal candidate research. Taking the easy way out and using race as an excuse can be construed as having a sense that there is some kind of racial inferiority.

I also want to highly stress that I would never allege that someone is or is not a racist and these are my observations.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I mean, we know what the deal is by this point. The proponents who are most "against" racism are actually the biggest proponents for it as they continue to point to perceived deficiencies as opposed to coming up with real ways to help the community in question. It's tired and cliche, but hey; that's what they are!

Really now? How much evidence do you need? I guess I'm being a proponent for racism by pointing out ways that African-Americans are not on equal standing in America and ways to fix it?

I think that your pointing out deficiencies and then giving a pass because that is how a particular group has been perceived and/or affected over time without offering ways to lift the group is concerning.

Changing the voting year isn't instilling greater civic duty or the sense of a responsibility to vote. Requiring that party affiliation be placed in front of a candidates name is not encouraging further personal candidate research. Taking the easy way out and using race as an excuse can be construed as having a sense that there is some kind of racial inferiority.

I also want to highly stress that I would never allege that someone is or is not a racist and these are my observations.

Duke,

I think you have hit on what I have been trying to say.

Changing the year to put it on the same ballet as the Presidential election and putting Ds and Rs behind the name really does nothing as to getting these people to actually vote for who is going to help their community.

Again, the issue here is that there aren't enough black people on the city council and in public offices in these areas when the population is mostly black. If both Rs and Ds for these offices are still all white, what has been gained? What if the R is conservative but a decent person only to have the D a total crook? What guarantee is there that the politicians that are then in office are really out to improve the lives of these people?

Sure....the voter can go down and simply vote for all Democrats. That means nothing in fixing the problems that the article first started talking about.

 

[tschu]

I mean, we know what the deal is by this point. The proponents who are most "against" racism are actually the biggest proponents for it as they continue to point to perceived deficiencies as opposed to coming up with real ways to help the community in question. It's tired and cliche, but hey; that's what they are!

Really now? How much evidence do you need? I guess I'm being a proponent for racism by pointing out ways that African-Americans are not on equal standing in America and ways to fix it?

I think that your pointing out deficiencies and then giving a pass because that is how a particular group has been perceived and/or affected over time without offering ways to lift the group is concerning.

Changing the voting year isn't instilling greater civic duty or the sense of a responsibility to vote. Requiring that party affiliation be placed in front of a candidates name is not encouraging further personal candidate research. Taking the easy way out and using race as an excuse can be construed as having a sense that there is some kind of racial inferiority.

I also want to highly stress that I would never allege that someone is or is not a racist and these are my observations.

I've offered plenty of ways over time, but half the battle in this thread is convincing people that race is an issue, so that's what I've been spending my time on. See: LukeinNE, StPaulHusker

 

[tschu]

I mean, we know what the deal is by this point. The proponents who are most "against" racism are actually the biggest proponents for it as they continue to point to perceived deficiencies as opposed to coming up with real ways to help the community in question. It's tired and cliche, but hey; that's what they are!

Really now? How much evidence do you need? I guess I'm being a proponent for racism by pointing out ways that African-Americans are not on equal standing in America and ways to fix it?

I think that your pointing out deficiencies and then giving a pass because that is how a particular group has been perceived and/or affected over time without offering ways to lift the group is concerning.

Changing the voting year isn't instilling greater civic duty or the sense of a responsibility to vote. Requiring that party affiliation be placed in front of a candidates name is not encouraging further personal candidate research. Taking the easy way out and using race as an excuse can be construed as having a sense that there is some kind of racial inferiority.

I also want to highly stress that I would never allege that someone is or is not a racist and these are my observations.

Duke,

I think you have hit on what I have been trying to say.

Changing the year to put it on the same ballet as the Presidential election and putting Ds and Rs behind the name really does nothing as to getting these people to actually vote for who is going to help their community.

Again, the issue here is that there aren't enough black people on the city council and in public offices in these areas when the population is mostly black. If both Rs and Ds for these offices are still all white, what has been gained? What if the R is conservative but a decent person only to have the D a total crook? What guarantee is there that the politicians that are then in office are really out to improve the lives of these people?

Sure....the voter can go down and simply vote for all Democrats. That means nothing in fixing the problems that the article first started talking about.

Sure.

So what's your fix?

 

[tschu]

tl;dr the biggest reason for blacks not advancing is white people insisting that they don't have any need to advance because they're right here with us

I'm interested in who is saying that.

Well you could either watch Fox News for 10 minutes as an example or you could understand the distinction between explicit racism and implicit, institutionalized oppression which exists but doesn't play out as simply and obviously as someone actually saying, they don't have any need to advance because they're right here with us". I'd recommend both.

Landlord gets it.

 

[lo country]

Just read that Holder is being sent to meet with feds and the investigation.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_SHOOTING_MISSOURI_OBAMA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-18-16-42-38

No need to go to Chicago with all the homicides there (genocide), or OK with the murder of the WWII vet and his wife or to even investigate the NBPP for their death threats.

Anyone who believes that the officer has a snow balls chance in hell of getting any type of fair trial is slim to none.

IMO, let the court system work i.e. state/local GJ. If it shows misconduct, then bring in main DOJ for possible civil rights issues.

I have also seen nothing about the officers injuries (if any) any type of DNA analysis of either persons clothes. For the officer, his pistol, uniform, duty belt etc that would show he and Brown were engaged in a struggle, DNA of the patrol car, prints of the door etc........He is already guilty by the court of public opinion and screwed. Even if found innocent.

IMO, this is a slippery slope of fed over sight over local police investigations.

 

[LukeinNE]

I've offered plenty of ways over time, but half the battle in this thread is convincing people that race is an issue, so that's what I've been spending my time on. See: LukeinNE, StPaulHusker

Actually, I think you spend your time on it because you don't have answers, you just enjoy the political points you can score by labeling people you don't agree with as racially insensitive and therefore not worth listening to (and...when we don't cooperate in being racially insensitive, it's time to make things up, apparently). I have said again and again and again and again and again in this thread alone that racial bias exists in this country.....but here we are on page 8, with me having to make a post stating that, yes indeed, I do believe racial bias is a problem in this country. So...why are you focusing on our supposed denialism? A convenient straw man, to be sure, but I'm not sure how it helps move any conversation forward.

 

[lo country]

Quick comment on the odd year and no R or D on some races (public office). In NC, many local races do not have an R or D, i.e. city/county counsel, DA's or judges IIRC.

I was recently in meetings with some others and our city planning. When we complained about zoning changes and no notifications, we were told it was "our job" to follow changes and check the local government channels to see what was taking place. They said it was our job to be informed. Not theirs to make/keep us informed. Their main emphasis was "if you care, you'll stay connected and educate yourselves"............... The whole, our fault for not caring. Not theirs for not explaining or notifying.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Sure.

So what's your fix?

Again, I would like to know how many black people have been on the ballet over the last 10 years.

If there have been black people on the ballet, that is a totally different problem then if there isn't any.

So, let's assume there WAS black people on the ballet. The problem then becomes...a) Nobody really cares so they don't show up to vote for them...or....b) The black candidates are doing a horrible problem of getting in front of the community and asking for their vote.

If there are black people on the ballet AND they are getting in front of the people and people don't care enough to vote, then figure out how to get people to vote. Honestly, no matter if the issue is civil rights for minorities, gay marriage, abortion, gun rights, taxes...etc. if you don't go vote simply because you don't care or pay attention, then that's your problem. That has nothing to do with literacy if the candidate is walking down the street shaking your hand to meet you and you don't take the time to pay attention.

Now, if there are NOT man black people on the ballet, then that is an entirely different problem. Someone needs to go into these communities and foster candidates by being mentors. I'm sure there are black business owners or leaders of some kind around. Sometimes it simply takes someone ASKING them to run. Sometimes it takes someone to say...."hey...you would do great at this", to get someone motivated to run.

Problem there is that sometimes those people who try to be "mentors" have ulterior motives too. But, at least it needs to be tried.

Another part of this is very few black people on the police force. Why? Everyone claims that's a problem. I would be interested in knowing what the police department has done in the past to promote that career choice to local black kids in HS. Are they going into these schools and asking them to choose this for a career? This would do two things. It could increase the black representation and it would be a great start for the police building a relationship with the kids in the area.

 

[tschu]

Sure.

So what's your fix?

Again, I would like to know how many black people have been on the ballet over the last 10 years.

If there have been black people on the ballet, that is a totally different problem then if there isn't any.

So, let's assume there WAS black people on the ballet. The problem then becomes...a) Nobody really cares so they don't show up to vote for them...or....b) The black candidates are doing a horrible problem of getting in front of the community and asking for their vote.

If there are black people on the ballet AND they are getting in front of the people and people don't care enough to vote, then figure out how to get people to vote. Honestly, no matter if the issue is civil rights for minorities, gay marriage, abortion, gun rights, taxes...etc. if you don't go vote simply because you don't care or pay attention, then that's your problem. That has nothing to do with literacy if the candidate is walking down the street shaking your hand to meet you and you don't take the time to pay attention.

Now, if there are NOT man black people on the ballet, then that is an entirely different problem. Someone needs to go into these communities and foster candidates by being mentors. I'm sure there are black business owners or leaders of some kind around. Sometimes it simply takes someone ASKING them to run. Sometimes it takes someone to say...."hey...you would do great at this", to get someone motivated to run.

Problem there is that sometimes those people who try to be "mentors" have ulterior motives too. But, at least it needs to be tried.

Another part of this is very few black people on the police force. Why? Everyone claims that's a problem. I would be interested in knowing what the police department has done in the past to promote that career choice to local black kids in HS. Are they going into these schools and asking them to choose this for a career? This would do two things. It could increase the black representation and it would be a great start for the police building a relationship with the kids in the area.

Another thing to note is that the lack of African-Americans on ballots in general is a distinct sign of not being on equal standing. If they were, you'd expect to see them represented somewhat proportionally to the racial percentage of the population. Which they're not. Blacks aren't on the ballot many times even in predominantly black communities. So that in itself is part of the problem.

Honestly I was asking less specifically about the black representation and more about the African-American participation in voting and the government in general. And even just voting turnout in general for any racial demographic.

 

[Creighton Duke]

Another thing to note is that the lack of African-Americans on ballots in general is a distinct sign of not being on equal standing. If they were, you'd expect to see them represented somewhat proportionally to the racial percentage of the population. Which they're not. Blacks aren't in the ballot. So that in itself is part of the problem.

Which ballots are your referring to? City council? State Offices? Federal? What are the obstacles to getting on the ballot that disproportionately affect Blacks?

 

[tschu]

Actually, I think you spend your time on it because you don't have answers, you just enjoy the political points you can score by labeling people you don't agree with as racially insensitive and therefore not worth listening to (and...when we don't cooperate in being racially insensitive, it's time to make things up, apparently). I have said again and again and again and again and again in this thread alone that racial bias exists in this country.....but here we are on page 8, with me having to make a post stating that, yes indeed, I do believe racial bias is a problem in this country. So...why are you focusing on our supposed denialism? A convenient straw man, to be sure, but I'm not sure how it helps move any conversation forward.

I don't want political points because my political points mean nothing; merely acknowledgement of things that are problems so that we can fix them. I haven't labeled anyone racist or insensitive; although I have labeled some people ignorant of the facts. And to be honest that's what most of the race problem looks like today - biases and lack of knowledge of problems being faced. As I've posted many times, that's what like 99% of "racism" in America is, although I'll admit using the word "racist" to describe things that are stacked against the black community. Not necessarily overt racism. So yes, you seem to recognize the problems, but then I still get pushback from you when I claim there are problems, which seems weird to me.

 

[tschu]

Another thing to note is that the lack of African-Americans on ballots in general is a distinct sign of not being on equal standing. If they were, you'd expect to see them represented somewhat proportionally to the racial percentage of the population. Which they're not. Blacks aren't in the ballot. So that in itself is part of the problem.

Which ballots are your referring to? City council? State Offices? Federal? What are the obstacles to getting on the ballot that disproportionately affect Blacks?

All of the above. And you tell me; probably a combination of poverty and lack of educational opportunities - to get elected you generally have to be successful, educated, probably have some sort of monetary resource for campaigning, etc. I mean we know how disproportionately poverty affects blacks.

 

[Creighton Duke]

Another thing to note is that the lack of African-Americans on ballots in general is a distinct sign of not being on equal standing. If they were, you'd expect to see them represented somewhat proportionally to the racial percentage of the population. Which they're not. Blacks aren't in the ballot. So that in itself is part of the problem.

Which ballots are your referring to? City council? State Offices? Federal? What are the obstacles to getting on the ballot that disproportionately affect Blacks?

All of the above. And you tell me; probably a combination of poverty and lack of educational opportunities - to get elected you generally have to be successful, educated, probably have some sort of monetary resource for campaigning, etc. I mean we know how disproportionately poverty affects blacks.

Now you're talking about getting elected. First you were talking about getting on the ballot (which isn't that difficult to do, especially at local levels).

Regardless, in areas of high diversity, low-income, etc. it would seem as though Blacks (capitalized when referring to a racial group) would be able to better appeal to others with similar backgrounds and socioeconomic backgrounds. Why not use those factors/characteristics to appeal to your likely constituents or voting bloc?

 

[LukeinNE]

So yes, you seem to recognize the problems, but then I still get pushback from you when I claim there are problems, which seems weird to me.

You probably get push back because you take the caricatured left-wing view that any and all discrepancies between whites and blacks simply must be due to white racism, whether explicit, implicit, or built into the system, and has nothing at all to do with failings within the black community. In fact, you've never expressed what you think blacks should be responsible for. Voting? It's totally free, it can be done in person, in the mail, on election day, usually a month + before election day - it is not hard to do. WaPo's numbers state that during the 2012 elections, blacks in Ferguson voted roughly at the same rate whites did. This demonstrates, beyond a doubt, that when they want to, blacks (in Ferguson, at least) can vote just as easily as whites can.

The rules did not change in between the 2012 and 2013 elections, but black participation dropped from 54% to 6%. There is only one reasonable explanation why black participation dropped so much: they didn't want to. That's not racism, that's black people in Ferguson choosing not to participate in our democratic process, which is their right. Their choice is not something that we need to swoop in and "fix." Honestly, when you speak of "problems" like this, I immediately envision the amorphous blob humans on WALL-E - incapable of anything without their floating chairs. We're being racially insensitive by bothering black people to vote more than once every four years? Bring out the hover chairs (government-funded, of course).

This is about the most obvious example of the "soft bigotry of low expectations" you will ever get.