Armstrong at QB

[melscott62]

Bo made a comment that TA had poor fundamentals in his passing game.....i guess this is the best we got? at this point in the season?? reminds me of TM...we haven't had a decent throwing QB in years........hard to run a good spread offense when your guy can't throw worth a damn!.....

And yet we never recruit guys that can really pass..... is its frustrating

 

[3rd and long]

It has been mentioned that TA should have taken more check down routes and Bo mentioned this play post-game. This is the play before the Pick Six. Obviously, TA really wanted to throw to Westerkamp in the back of the end zone but if he throws to Turner right now it's an easy six. He eventually short hops it at Turner's feet as Turner is standing on the sideline. Crazy how a little "mistake" can get magnified.

Is anyone covering Westerkamp in this picture? He looks quite open. I'd go for the corner of the end zone too.Another thing is QBs don't have the luxury of deciding between two options (at least, I don't think they do.) Not usually. When you go through progressions, you take the first one if it's there, and if you move on to the second you probably don't come back to the first. And you might not have time to go through progressions, especially if you're a young QB.In the last screen, a better throw as Tommy made on a previous out to either Westerkamp or Jamal seems like it should have done the job. This throw was not in the right place at all. It does seem like he's fairly tightly covered though, which is what makes the out a difficult throw. You really have to zip it way out there or the risk is substantial.And I do agree, Tommy should choose to move on from his first progression a little more. Although the decision-making probably goes: if I switch and look at #2, and he's covered, I'm probably taking a sack. Maybe in time he'll do this all fast enough to get to his checkdown as well.

Tommy was being well protected. It's not as difficult as we want to try to make it. He's supposed to be able to roll to that side of the field, the same direction as the routes are being ran. I'm assuming the short route is probably his first option, but if that covered up that deep route to Westerkamp should develop. Tommy has the choice to choose either and it's not a hard choice, both routes are right in front of him. The thing is that short route was not covered up and he needed to trust that Turner would catch the ball and do his job from there. This getting greedy and taking the downfield sh#t needs to stop. If its there, you take it. Take enough of those short routes and a few times a game those deep routes become like playing catch in the backyard with no defenders.

It's every bit as difficult as everyone is making it out to be. Thats why QB is such a demanding position. It looks easy looking at a screenshot, but at game speed those are such split second decisons. Thats why experience plays such huge role, when a kid has two or three seasons under his belt, thats when you start to hear the phrases like "the game is slowing down for him". Thats when he'll start to be comfortable getting through his reads.

And typically, the progressions go short to long on the routes. That why the running back out of the backfield is almost always the check down option. I had mentioned in another post that has good as Ameer is in space, it might be time to switch it up and make him the primary.

 

[True2tRA]

It has been mentioned that TA should have taken more check down routes and Bo mentioned this play post-game. This is the play before the Pick Six. Obviously, TA really wanted to throw to Westerkamp in the back of the end zone but if he throws to Turner right now it's an easy six. He eventually short hops it at Turner's feet as Turner is standing on the sideline. Crazy how a little "mistake" can get magnified.

Is anyone covering Westerkamp in this picture? He looks quite open. I'd go for the corner of the end zone too.Another thing is QBs don't have the luxury of deciding between two options (at least, I don't think they do.) Not usually. When you go through progressions, you take the first one if it's there, and if you move on to the second you probably don't come back to the first. And you might not have time to go through progressions, especially if you're a young QB.In the last screen, a better throw as Tommy made on a previous out to either Westerkamp or Jamal seems like it should have done the job. This throw was not in the right place at all. It does seem like he's fairly tightly covered though, which is what makes the out a difficult throw. You really have to zip it way out there or the risk is substantial.And I do agree, Tommy should choose to move on from his first progression a little more. Although the decision-making probably goes: if I switch and look at #2, and he's covered, I'm probably taking a sack. Maybe in time he'll do this all fast enough to get to his checkdown as well.

Tommy was being well protected. It's not as difficult as we want to try to make it. He's supposed to be able to roll to that side of the field, the same direction as the routes are being ran. I'm assuming the short route is probably his first option, but if that covered up that deep route to Westerkamp should develop. Tommy has the choice to choose either and it's not a hard choice, both routes are right in front of him. The thing is that short route was not covered up and he needed to trust that Turner would catch the ball and do his job from there. This getting greedy and taking the downfield sh#t needs to stop. If its there, you take it. Take enough of those short routes and a few times a game those deep routes become like playing catch in the backyard with no defenders.

It's every bit as difficult as everyone is making it out to be. Thats why QB is such a demanding position. It looks easy looking at a screenshot, but at game speed those are such split second decisons. Thats why experience plays such huge role, when a kid has two or three seasons under his belt, thats when you start to hear the phrases like "the game is slowing down for him". Thats when he'll start to be comfortable getting through his reads.

And typically, the progressions go short to long on the routes. That why the running back out of the backfield is almost always the check down option. I had mentioned in another post that has good as Ameer is in space, it might be time to switch it up and make him the primary.

Good lord, I was talking about the damn play in discussion not the the quarterbacks position for Gods sake. Geezus. I preach and preach how demanding this position is and how demanding this offense is so gimme a damn break with this.
Did you read my comment? You literally just said what I said. The only reason I said the play in discussion was less complicated is because the pocket is moving to the sideof the field giving Tommy space to roll to the side where the receivers routes are also developing. I literally said the short route to Turner is probably his first option because its the short route and the first to develop, the deeper route that Westerkamp is running obviously takes longer to develop because it is a deeper route. A check down to Abduallah is an option on almost every pass play we run and on this play Tommy also has the ability to pull it down and run if the defense gives him the space on the edge.

I simply said this play, the play we were discussing, nothing else, is simpler because Tommy has a lot of options to go with the football and they are mostly to that side of the field on a rollout with the option to keep the ball and run also. Any quarterback in the country should execute THIS PLAY. I REPEAT. ..........THIS PLAY.

 

[True2tRA]

I am even willing to bet there is a reason we run that type of PLAY, THAT PLAY, because it utilizes some of Tommy's mobility, gives him a bit of extra time, and all the routes develop to his throwing side giving him many options. Being a sophomore, this is exactly the type of thing you do for your QB instead of making him scan the entire field going through multiple check downs and various criss crossing routes like some team do.

 

[zoogs]

I thought he made a good, inoffensive point...

Although, did you mean progressions typically go long to short? That seems to fit with the RB being the checkdown more. Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

 

[Mavric]

I am even willing to bet there is a reason we run that type of PLAY, THAT PLAY, because it utilizes some of Tommy's mobility, gives him a bit of extra time, and all the routes develop to his throwing side giving him many options. Being a sophomore, this is exactly the type of thing you do for your QB instead of making him scan the entire field going through multiple check downs and various criss crossing routes like some team do.

I would agree with you except that would mean Beck would have been trying to play to the strengths of his players and I've been told that's not true.

 

[Mavric]

Although, did you mean progressions typically go long to short? That seems to fit with the RB being the checkdown more. Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

I don't know if there is a general rule of thumb as far as long to short. I'm sure all teams have some that way and some the reverse.

My best guess on this play would be that the "primary" (if ever-so-slightly) read should have been Turner on the short out - mainly because there is a "rub" (since a pick is illegal

) so he would be expected to be open quickly. But I think two receivers running outs and rolling the QB to that side is designed to get him two reads that are easy to see so they'd be basically equal on this play.

 

[True2tRA]

I thought he made a good, inoffensive point...Although, did you mean progressions typically go long to short? That seems to fit with the RB being the checkdown more. Maybe I'm misunderstanding...

I'm not sure if you're talking to me or not but if so, he quoted me as if I said the Quarterback position is somehow not difficult. I never said that. I then explained what I said in plenty of detail as to make myself very, very clear. That seems to be a necessity anymore.
Two, im no coach or expert but I don't think you can always talk about progressions as if it's some clear or pre determined thing. Tommy is going to read the defense and determine his hot read or where he believes he may go. Other plays they've practiced they may have a progression or an expectation for Tommy to go here, here, or there, but some of these things depend on the look of the defense. As far as Ive heard, Beck allows the quarterback quite a bit of freedom to change plays and routes. We saw Tommy and the WR's communicating a bit during the first few games. Based on these things I don't think your progression is always going to be short routes before long routes or anything like that. The RB check down on many plays is just a safety valve, sometimes just a last resort. It just seems our last resort happens to be Ameer Abduallah and he seems to be uncovered quite a bit, so it's not a bad last resort. I think they would just like to see Tommy go there a bit more often one, because Ameer is a stud, and two, it is a simpler throw versus forcing the ball downfield.

I'm not sure if I'm answering your question at all. As said above, I'm no expert and the QB position is a complicated one with a lot of variables in every play. If it were simple, everyone would do it and succeed.

Also to be clear, when I say the check down to the RB is sometimes a last resort or safety valve I say that because usually when a team passesm it's because they are trying to go forward or down the field. If this wasn't the goal, then we would just run the damn thing all the time. Which, maybe wouldn't be a bad thing ? Lol.

 

[True2tRA]

I am even willing to bet there is a reason we run that type of PLAY, THAT PLAY, because it utilizes some of Tommy's mobility, gives him a bit of extra time, and all the routes develop to his throwing side giving him many options. Being a sophomore, this is exactly the type of thing you do for your QB instead of making him scan the entire field going through multiple check downs and various criss crossing routes like some team do.

I would agree with you except that would mean Beck would have been trying to play to the strengths of his players and I've been told that's not true.

I think he does and he doesn't. It's not always black white, it's usually grey. It's that way with just about everything you encounter in this life.

 

[3rd and long]

It has been mentioned that TA should have taken more check down routes and Bo mentioned this play post-game. This is the play before the Pick Six. Obviously, TA really wanted to throw to Westerkamp in the back of the end zone but if he throws to Turner right now it's an easy six. He eventually short hops it at Turner's feet as Turner is standing on the sideline. Crazy how a little "mistake" can get magnified.

Is anyone covering Westerkamp in this picture? He looks quite open. I'd go for the corner of the end zone too.Another thing is QBs don't have the luxury of deciding between two options (at least, I don't think they do.) Not usually. When you go through progressions, you take the first one if it's there, and if you move on to the second you probably don't come back to the first. And you might not have time to go through progressions, especially if you're a young QB.In the last screen, a better throw as Tommy made on a previous out to either Westerkamp or Jamal seems like it should have done the job. This throw was not in the right place at all. It does seem like he's fairly tightly covered though, which is what makes the out a difficult throw. You really have to zip it way out there or the risk is substantial.And I do agree, Tommy should choose to move on from his first progression a little more. Although the decision-making probably goes: if I switch and look at #2, and he's covered, I'm probably taking a sack. Maybe in time he'll do this all fast enough to get to his checkdown as well.

Tommy was being well protected. It's not as difficult as we want to try to make it. He's supposed to be able to roll to that side of the field, the same direction as the routes are being ran. I'm assuming the short route is probably his first option, but if that covered up that deep route to Westerkamp should develop. Tommy has the choice to choose either and it's not a hard choice, both routes are right in front of him. The thing is that short route was not covered up and he needed to trust that Turner would catch the ball and do his job from there. This getting greedy and taking the downfield sh#t needs to stop. If its there, you take it. Take enough of those short routes and a few times a game those deep routes become like playing catch in the backyard with no defenders.

It's every bit as difficult as everyone is making it out to be. Thats why QB is such a demanding position. It looks easy looking at a screenshot, but at game speed those are such split second decisons. Thats why experience plays such huge role, when a kid has two or three seasons under his belt, thats when you start to hear the phrases like "the game is slowing down for him". Thats when he'll start to be comfortable getting through his reads.

And typically, the progressions go short to long on the routes. That why the running back out of the backfield is almost always the check down option. I had mentioned in another post that has good as Ameer is in space, it might be time to switch it up and make him the primary.

Good lord, I was talking about the damn play in discussion not the the quarterbacks position for Gods sake. Geezus. I preach and preach how demanding this position is and how demanding this offense is so gimme a damn break with this.
Did you read my comment? You literally just said what I said. The only reason I said the play in discussion was less complicated is because the pocket is moving to the sideof the field giving Tommy space to roll to the side where the receivers routes are also developing. I literally said the short route to Turner is probably his first option because its the short route and the first to develop, the deeper route that Westerkamp is running obviously takes longer to develop because it is a deeper route. A check down to Abduallah is an option on almost every pass play we run and on this play Tommy also has the ability to pull it down and run if the defense gives him the space on the edge.

I simply said this play, the play we were discussing, nothing else, is simpler because Tommy has a lot of options to go with the football and they are mostly to that side of the field on a rollout with the option to keep the ball and run also. Any quarterback in the country should execute THIS PLAY. I REPEAT. ..........THIS PLAY.

Yes, I did read your entire post. And sorry, but I didn't get that you were talking about just the one specific play.

My aplogies on that for reading it wrong.

But you just made my point with your bolded statement. Having more options does not make it simpler, it makes it more of a judgement call on his part. One he had to make at full speed with people coming at him.

Thats why I said maybe make the check down or dump off the #2 option. Check your primary, he's covered, then dump it off. You simplify it by having less options.

I really think that basically we're both on the same page, get Ameer the ball out in space.

 

[Lonestar_Husker]

Is anyone covering Westerkamp in this picture? He looks quite open. I'd go for the corner of the end zone too.

Another thing is QBs don't have the luxury of deciding between two options (at least, I don't think they do.) Not usually. When you go through progressions, you take the first one if it's there, and if you move on to the second you probably don't come back to the first. And you might not have time to go through progressions, especially if you're a young QB.

In the last screen, a better throw as Tommy made on a previous out to either Westerkamp or Jamal seems like it should have done the job. This throw was not in the right place at all. It does seem like he's fairly tightly covered though, which is what makes the out a difficult throw. You really have to zip it way out there or the risk is substantial.

And I do agree, Tommy should choose to move on from his first progression a little more. Although the decision-making probably goes: if I switch and look at #2, and he's covered, I'm probably taking a sack. Maybe in time he'll do this all fast enough to get to his checkdown as well.

The guy right in front of Westerkamp actually recovers quickly. TA started to throw to Westerkamp but pulled it back down.

It's kind of a fine line as far as progressions go. You definitely look to one then the second and so on. It's not always realistic to expect him to see the #2 option is open before he decides the #1 option isn't. This type of play would probably be an exception. He's rolling toward both receivers and it would normally be more of an option as opposed to a specific #1/#2. You're expecting them to not be able to cover both so you're looking for whoever comes open. You should really be more looking for where the defenders are because you know where the receivers are going. I just think TA had already decided to throw it to Westerkamp (usually an excellent option).

He *could* have gotten it through to Westerkamp (in the previous screen) but that's a Brett Farve type throw - Farve would probably get it there more often then not but he'd also throw several picks trying as well which makes people shake their heads. Most coaches would tell you he's not open and work to your next option.

I see this as an example of a great opportunity to look off receivers. The corner recovered quickly by reading QB eyes. It looks like he was running up to stop Jamal, but sees Tommy staring Westercamp down, so adjusts. If he pumps to Jamal, I bet Westercamp is open or vice-versa, as soon as he sees the defender adjust, right when this snapshot is taken, hit Jamal in stride and give him a chance.

When going through progressions, your receivers should be running routes that will develop in order. First read should be apparent rather quickly, second read should open up a second later after 1st read is not available. If your first read is going to take time to develop, but is there, that is when looking off defenders comes in handy. Since the O-line seems to be giving decent pass-pro, a pump fake now and then might be beneficial.

The thing is, TA is a sophomore and he doesn't appear to have reached his ceiling, yet. Those not expecting improvement from a player that exhibits his leadership and work ethic are ...... just .... looking for a reason to hate. I would wager a large sum of money that he is pouring over that game film to see where he effed up. I'm sure they are just as bad at their jobs as they were on their first day, because improvement just doesn't exist. I know it's not his first day, but can you honestly not see any improvement from his early games last year? Why would we expect zero improvement? Wait.... never mind..... that last statement will derail thread straight into the Tangent.

 

[True2tRA]

It has been mentioned that TA should have taken more check down routes and Bo mentioned this play post-game. This is the play before the Pick Six. Obviously, TA really wanted to throw to Westerkamp in the back of the end zone but if he throws to Turner right now it's an easy six. He eventually short hops it at Turner's feet as Turner is standing on the sideline. Crazy how a little "mistake" can get magnified.

Is anyone covering Westerkamp in this picture? He looks quite open. I'd go for the corner of the end zone too.Another thing is QBs don't have the luxury of deciding between two options (at least, I don't think they do.) Not usually. When you go through progressions, you take the first one if it's there, and if you move on to the second you probably don't come back to the first. And you might not have time to go through progressions, especially if you're a young QB.In the last screen, a better throw as Tommy made on a previous out to either Westerkamp or Jamal seems like it should have done the job. This throw was not in the right place at all. It does seem like he's fairly tightly covered though, which is what makes the out a difficult throw. You really have to zip it way out there or the risk is substantial.And I do agree, Tommy should choose to move on from his first progression a little more. Although the decision-making probably goes: if I switch and look at #2, and he's covered, I'm probably taking a sack. Maybe in time he'll do this all fast enough to get to his checkdown as well.

Tommy was being well protected. It's not as difficult as we want to try to make it. He's supposed to be able to roll to that side of the field, the same direction as the routes are being ran. I'm assuming the short route is probably his first option, but if that covered up that deep route to Westerkamp should develop. Tommy has the choice to choose either and it's not a hard choice, both routes are right in front of him. The thing is that short route was not covered up and he needed to trust that Turner would catch the ball and do his job from there. This getting greedy and taking the downfield sh#t needs to stop. If its there, you take it. Take enough of those short routes and a few times a game those deep routes become like playing catch in the backyard with no defenders.

It's every bit as difficult as everyone is making it out to be. Thats why QB is such a demanding position. It looks easy looking at a screenshot, but at game speed those are such split second decisons. Thats why experience plays such huge role, when a kid has two or three seasons under his belt, thats when you start to hear the phrases like "the game is slowing down for him". Thats when he'll start to be comfortable getting through his reads.

And typically, the progressions go short to long on the routes. That why the running back out of the backfield is almost always the check down option. I had mentioned in another post that has good as Ameer is in space, it might be time to switch it up and make him the primary.

Good lord, I was talking about the damn play in discussion not the the quarterbacks position for Gods sake. Geezus. I preach and preach how demanding this position is and how demanding this offense is so gimme a damn break with this.

Did you read my comment? You literally just said what I said. The only reason I said the play in discussion was less complicated is because the pocket is moving to the sideof the field giving Tommy space to roll to the side where the receivers routes are also developing. I literally said the short route to Turner is probably his first option because its the short route and the first to develop, the deeper route that Westerkamp is running obviously takes longer to develop because it is a deeper route. A check down to Abduallah is an option on almost every pass play we run and on this play Tommy also has the ability to pull it down and run if the defense gives him the space on the edge.

I simply said this play, the play we were discussing, nothing else, is simpler because Tommy has a lot of options to go with the football and they are mostly to that side of the field on a rollout with the option to keep the ball and run also. Any quarterback in the country should execute THIS PLAY. I REPEAT. ..........THIS PLAY.

Yes, I did read your entire post. And sorry, but I didn't get that you were talking about just the one specific play.

My aplogies on that for reading it wrong.

But you just made my point with your bolded statement. Having more options does not make it simpler, it makes it more of a judgement call on his part. One he had to make at full speed with people coming at him.

Thats why I said maybe make the check down or dump off the #2 option. Check your primary, he's covered, then dump it off. You simplify it by having less options.

I really think that basically we're both on the same page, get Ameer the ball out in space.

I guess we see it different, I view it as an easier play for a QB when he has more options and the ability to create, but I can see your view of it also. That's fine if we disagree.

We do agree on a key point. Ameer in space, PERIOD. I don't care how they do it. I would love to see us be more creative with the running game, but screen passes, short dump routes out of the backfield, ANYTHING! Just get this guy some open field to operate in. There's not a soul on this planet that is going to own Abdullah in that situation, and i truly believe that.

 

[Hunter94]

It has been mentioned that TA should have taken more check down routes and Bo mentioned this play post-game. This is the play before the Pick Six. Obviously, TA really wanted to throw to Westerkamp in the back of the end zone but if he throws to Turner right now it's an easy six. He eventually short hops it at Turner's feet as Turner is standing on the sideline. Crazy how a little "mistake" can get magnified.

Is anyone covering Westerkamp in this picture? He looks quite open. I'd go for the corner of the end zone too.Another thing is QBs don't have the luxury of deciding between two options (at least, I don't think they do.) Not usually. When you go through progressions, you take the first one if it's there, and if you move on to the second you probably don't come back to the first. And you might not have time to go through progressions, especially if you're a young QB.In the last screen, a better throw as Tommy made on a previous out to either Westerkamp or Jamal seems like it should have done the job. This throw was not in the right place at all. It does seem like he's fairly tightly covered though, which is what makes the out a difficult throw. You really have to zip it way out there or the risk is substantial.And I do agree, Tommy should choose to move on from his first progression a little more. Although the decision-making probably goes: if I switch and look at #2, and he's covered, I'm probably taking a sack. Maybe in time he'll do this all fast enough to get to his checkdown as well.

Tommy was being well protected. It's not as difficult as we want to try to make it. He's supposed to be able to roll to that side of the field, the same direction as the routes are being ran. I'm assuming the short route is probably his first option, but if that covered up that deep route to Westerkamp should develop. Tommy has the choice to choose either and it's not a hard choice, both routes are right in front of him. The thing is that short route was not covered up and he needed to trust that Turner would catch the ball and do his job from there. This getting greedy and taking the downfield sh#t needs to stop. If its there, you take it. Take enough of those short routes and a few times a game those deep routes become like playing catch in the backyard with no defenders.

It's every bit as difficult as everyone is making it out to be. Thats why QB is such a demanding position. It looks easy looking at a screenshot, but at game speed those are such split second decisons. Thats why experience plays such huge role, when a kid has two or three seasons under his belt, thats when you start to hear the phrases like "the game is slowing down for him". Thats when he'll start to be comfortable getting through his reads.

And typically, the progressions go short to long on the routes. That why the running back out of the backfield is almost always the check down option. I had mentioned in another post that has good as Ameer is in space, it might be time to switch it up and make him the primary.

Good lord, I was talking about the damn play in discussion not the the quarterbacks position for Gods sake. Geezus. I preach and preach how demanding this position is and how demanding this offense is so gimme a damn break with this.

Did you read my comment? You literally just said what I said. The only reason I said the play in discussion was less complicated is because the pocket is moving to the sideof the field giving Tommy space to roll to the side where the receivers routes are also developing. I literally said the short route to Turner is probably his first option because its the short route and the first to develop, the deeper route that Westerkamp is running obviously takes longer to develop because it is a deeper route. A check down to Abduallah is an option on almost every pass play we run and on this play Tommy also has the ability to pull it down and run if the defense gives him the space on the edge.

I simply said this play, the play we were discussing, nothing else, is simpler because Tommy has a lot of options to go with the football and they are mostly to that side of the field on a rollout with the option to keep the ball and run also. Any quarterback in the country should execute THIS PLAY. I REPEAT. ..........THIS PLAY.

Yes, I did read your entire post. And sorry, but I didn't get that you were talking about just the one specific play.

My aplogies on that for reading it wrong.

But you just made my point with your bolded statement. Having more options does not make it simpler, it makes it more of a judgement call on his part. One he had to make at full speed with people coming at him.

Thats why I said maybe make the check down or dump off the #2 option. Check your primary, he's covered, then dump it off. You simplify it by having less options.

I really think that basically we're both on the same page, get Ameer the ball out in space.

I guess we see it different, I view it as an easier play for a QB when he has more options and the ability to create, but I can see your view of it also. That's fine if we disagree.

We do agree on a key point. Ameer in space, PERIOD. I don't care how they do it. I would love to see us be more creative with the running game, but screen passes, short dump routes out of the backfield, ANYTHING! Just get this guy some open field to operate in. There's not a soul on this planet that is going to own Abdullah in that situation, and i truly believe that.

Tim Beck, please see comments posted above.

 

[Mavric]

I really like how TA is running the ball this year. But he needs to stop trying to jump over people. See Brett Hundley.

 

[Mavric]

Dan Hoppen ‏@danhoppen 1h
Sneaky stat: Tommy Armstrong is 12th in the nation with 1,031 total yards. 773 passing, 258 rushing. #Huskers