Camping Out: Quarterbacks

[RedSavage]

I have a question on QB play.

The constant complaint of Tommy staring down receivers or not going through is progressions has been a constant complaint with Nebraska QBs for a very long time.

So, my question is, if the WR has options as to what rout they are going to run and the QB is expected to look one way and immediately turn and throw to the receiver, wouldn't that be much more difficult if you don't know exactly what rout the receiver is running on the side that you aren't looking at but eventually going to throw to?

In my mind, it would be MUCH easier having confidence going through progressions if WRs have set routs they are going to run and the QB should know where each WR is on each play.

I obviously have never played QB or WR but...is my thought process on this correct? If the QB has confidence in knowing where the WR is going to be, he is more likely to look off a safety and then back quickly and release the pass. Instead, if the WR has options, the QB has to either watch the WR or at least turn back with enough time to realize what is happening on that side of the field.

Not totally correct. The defense is what determines what route the WR runs, so the QB should be able to say, if they are in a 2 high look, the WR is running this route or if they are blitzing from this side and playing cover 3 over the top they run this route, etc. That's a major simplification but the idea is that you shouldn't ever have to stare down receivers to know where they are going. You read the defense, you know where your receiver 'should' be going.

I was having a conversation with a friend about this a few days ago. I understand the QB and WR both are supposed to read the defense but how often did one of them make the wrong, or even different read than the other? It seemed like that happened quite a bit last year. I can think of a couple instances where that happening attributed to a couple of those TA "almost picks" that defenders dropped. The question I have is how much of that was TA's fault and how much was the WR's?

 

[BigRedBuster]

I have a question on QB play.

The constant complaint of Tommy staring down receivers or not going through is progressions has been a constant complaint with Nebraska QBs for a very long time.

So, my question is, if the WR has options as to what rout they are going to run and the QB is expected to look one way and immediately turn and throw to the receiver, wouldn't that be much more difficult if you don't know exactly what rout the receiver is running on the side that you aren't looking at but eventually going to throw to?

In my mind, it would be MUCH easier having confidence going through progressions if WRs have set routs they are going to run and the QB should know where each WR is on each play.

I obviously have never played QB or WR but...is my thought process on this correct? If the QB has confidence in knowing where the WR is going to be, he is more likely to look off a safety and then back quickly and release the pass. Instead, if the WR has options, the QB has to either watch the WR or at least turn back with enough time to realize what is happening on that side of the field.

Not totally correct. The defense is what determines what route the WR runs, so the QB should be able to say, if they are in a 2 high look, the WR is running this route or if they are blitzing from this side and playing cover 3 over the top they run this route, etc. That's a major simplification but the idea is that you shouldn't ever have to stare down receivers to know where they are going. You read the defense, you know where your receiver 'should' be going.

Okay, so when the defense moves?.................then what exactly?

I think you're wrong on this. I don't care if Tommy's aunt is Miss Cleo, there's no way to read a guys mind and know where he's going to go. Even if they were on the same page, Tommy is still going to look to make sure he's there and he's not gonna be able to let the ball go until the guy gets there. I'd love to hear the fans complain after hearing that. "Tommy, how did you throw 8 interceptions tonight?" "Well, the receiver was supposed to be there, so I just go ahead and throw it where I think he "should" be heading."?

Also, think about the times we have four wide receivers. You're telling me Tommy has to read the defense and know exactly where all four guys are going to be going according to how the defense is lined up? Then, again, when the defense shifts before the snap, you're kind of SOL aren't ya?

No way this is a plan for success.

This is my point. It seems like the option rout system is set up for more risk. If the WR is playing off of position of the DB and the QB is looking the other way before he turns and throws. How is he supposed to be extremely confident he knows where the WR is going to be AND (especially on deep routs) where he is going to be when the ball gets there?

If everyone knows what routs are going to be ran when the team breaks the huddle, it's much easier to know where a receiver is going to be even if you are looking the other way first.

 

[The Dude]

It's going to take a while to un-Beck Tommy.

Once you've been Beck'd your passing game's wrecked.

I'll take a lap now.

 

[Redux]

Just rewatched the MSU pick TA threw at the end again to be sure. Sorry, you can talk routes until you're blue in the face but I just don't see it as the recievers fault.

He could have went left into the open space but instead he went right, towards the sideline. Looked to me like TA never even looked for him even though he had time. The defender had already planted in, knew exactly where TA was throwing, so the receiver should probably adjust and get into open space right?

I'm not a WR or QB coach but this one still looks like it's on Tommy. Cue the schematical response defending the interceptin in 3...2...1...

 

[bale]

I have a question on QB play.

The constant complaint of Tommy staring down receivers or not going through is progressions has been a constant complaint with Nebraska QBs for a very long time.

So, my question is, if the WR has options as to what rout they are going to run and the QB is expected to look one way and immediately turn and throw to the receiver, wouldn't that be much more difficult if you don't know exactly what rout the receiver is running on the side that you aren't looking at but eventually going to throw to?

In my mind, it would be MUCH easier having confidence going through progressions if WRs have set routs they are going to run and the QB should know where each WR is on each play.

I obviously have never played QB or WR but...is my thought process on this correct? If the QB has confidence in knowing where the WR is going to be, he is more likely to look off a safety and then back quickly and release the pass. Instead, if the WR has options, the QB has to either watch the WR or at least turn back with enough time to realize what is happening on that side of the field.

Not totally correct. The defense is what determines what route the WR runs, so the QB should be able to say, if they are in a 2 high look, the WR is running this route or if they are blitzing from this side and playing cover 3 over the top they run this route, etc. That's a major simplification but the idea is that you shouldn't ever have to stare down receivers to know where they are going. You read the defense, you know where your receiver 'should' be going.

Okay, so when the defense moves?.................then what exactly?

I think you're wrong on this. I don't care if Tommy's aunt is Miss Cleo, there's no way to read a guys mind and know where he's going to go. Even if they were on the same page, Tommy is still going to look to make sure he's there and he's not gonna be able to let the ball go until the guy gets there. I'd love to hear the fans complain after hearing that. "Tommy, how did you throw 8 interceptions tonight?" "Well, the receiver was supposed to be there, so I just go ahead and throw it where I think he "should" be heading."?

Also, think about the times we have four wide receivers. You're telling me Tommy has to read the defense and know exactly where all four guys are going to be going according to how the defense is lined up? Then, again, when the defense shifts before the snap, you're kind of SOL aren't ya?

No way this is a plan for success.

You know they call plays, right? Like, there are set routes? This isn't backyard football where players are running around aimlessly. I actually cannot tell if you are joking or not. Tommy indeed knows exactly where his receivers will be going without looking by the design of the play. If not he needs to read his playbook more.

I have a question on QB play.

The constant complaint of Tommy staring down receivers or not going through is progressions has been a constant complaint with Nebraska QBs for a very long time.

So, my question is, if the WR has options as to what rout they are going to run and the QB is expected to look one way and immediately turn and throw to the receiver, wouldn't that be much more difficult if you don't know exactly what rout the receiver is running on the side that you aren't looking at but eventually going to throw to?

In my mind, it would be MUCH easier having confidence going through progressions if WRs have set routs they are going to run and the QB should know where each WR is on each play.

I obviously have never played QB or WR but...is my thought process on this correct? If the QB has confidence in knowing where the WR is going to be, he is more likely to look off a safety and then back quickly and release the pass. Instead, if the WR has options, the QB has to either watch the WR or at least turn back with enough time to realize what is happening on that side of the field.

Not totally correct. The defense is what determines what route the WR runs, so the QB should be able to say, if they are in a 2 high look, the WR is running this route or if they are blitzing from this side and playing cover 3 over the top they run this route, etc. That's a major simplification but the idea is that you shouldn't ever have to stare down receivers to know where they are going. You read the defense, you know where your receiver 'should' be going.

Are you sure that is what we were doing the last couple of years? It seemed like they were doing more than pre-snap reads particularly on some of the longer routes. It appeared that they were reading the position of the defenders relative to the receiver. Watching other teams I never saw an obvious miscommunication on long routes. They were always shorter routes. I was too late to ask that JM-whatever guy, that supposedly attended some of Beck's seminar's, what they were trying to do.

Oh yeah they definitely do lots of pre-snap reads as well. I think with Beck's offense it was definitely more pre-snap, but it can go both ways. If you go back and watch, some of Tommy's interceptions/awful looking throws last year would be when a WR would check into a route based on the pre-snap coverage (by signaling, let's say '2', with his hands) but Tommy wouldn't see it and Tommy would in fact throw to a spot expecting the receiver to be there where instead there was only grass. Or worse, a defender.

 

[zoogs]

I remember that play as being on the receiver, and that was how it was explained in the telecast. I also remember two guys running into each other on that play, but anyway...

I believe it boiled down to the receiver should have gone one way against the defense, but went the other way. Tommy threw it where the receiver should have gone based on what the defense was showing. In Beck's genius passing system® the receiver has to make the same read as Tommy, but failed to do so. So, there it is.

"Un-Beck Tommy", haha! That's a good way to put it. I hope they completely "Un-Beck" the hell out of Tommy. What kind of moron thinks he needs to over complicate every single damn thing they do out there? No more basketball on grass.

I'm with you, but it's only going to get more complicated from here. No more "just be a RB who throws sometimes." No more "it doesn't matter how you throw, as long as it gets there." No more weird "Gee, I hope the WR made the same call as me so I don't throw a devastating interception" passing system.

There's going to be a lot of emphasis on fundamentals, doing things right, throwing the right way vs air as a foundation, making progressions, etc.

It's no wonder people are nervous about whether Tommy can make the transition as quickly as will be required, from where he was last year to what he'll need to be this year. But if anybody can do it, it's someone who works as hard as he does. Still, we'll see...I'm excited/nervous.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Just rewatched the MSU pick TA threw at the end again to be sure. Sorry, you can talk routes until you're blue in the face but I just don't see it as the recievers fault.

He could have went left into the open space but instead he went right, towards the sideline. Looked to me like TA never even looked for him even though he had time. The defender had already planted in, knew exactly where TA was throwing, so the receiver should probably adjust and get into open space right?

I'm not a WR or QB coach but this one still looks like it's on Tommy. Cue the schematical response defending the interceptin in 3...2...1...

I think you are looking at the wrong receiver. The receivers ran into each other. The inside receiver did not run the correct rout and it caused him to run into Hovey who was supposed to be where Tommy threw the ball.

 

[Redux]

Just rewatched the MSU pick TA threw at the end again to be sure. Sorry, you can talk routes until you're blue in the face but I just don't see it as the recievers fault.

He could have went left into the open space but instead he went right, towards the sideline. Looked to me like TA never even looked for him even though he had time. The defender had already planted in, knew exactly where TA was throwing, so the receiver should probably adjust and get into open space right?

I'm not a WR or QB coach but this one still looks like it's on Tommy. Cue the schematical response defending the interceptin in 3...2...1...

I think you are looking at the wrong receiver. The receivers ran into each other. The inside receiver did not run the correct rout and it caused him to run into Hovey who was supposed to be where Tommy threw the ball.

The receiver Im looking at is on the sideline under the defender. If it was another receiver who was supposed to be there and fell down, that makes a difference.

However, I still look at it and think TA had time to at least look before releasing. I mean the defender was planted in exactly the right spot. So TA doesnt have to look for his receiver because the receiver should just be there? Well then what was he looking at? Was he watching the receiver he wanted to throw to fall down? An MSU cheerleader?

 

[True2tRA]

I remember that play as being on the receiver, and that was how it was explained in the telecast. I also remember two guys running into each other on that play, but anyway...I believe it boiled down to the receiver should have gone one way against the defense, but went the other way. Tommy threw it where the receiver should have gone based on what the defense was showing. In Beck's genius passing system® the receiver has to make the same read as Tommy, but failed to do so. So, there it is.

"Un-Beck Tommy", haha! That's a good way to put it. I hope they completely "Un-Beck" the hell out of Tommy. What kind of moron thinks he needs to over complicate every single damn thing they do out there? No more basketball on grass.

I'm with you, but it's only going to get more complicated from here. No more "just be a RB who throws sometimes." No more "it doesn't matter how you throw, as long as it gets there." No more weird "Gee, I hope the WR made the same call as me so I don't throw a devastating interception" passing system.There's going to be a lot of emphasis on fundamentals, doing things right, throwing the right way vs air as a foundation, making progressions, etc.It's no wonder people are nervous about whether Tommy can make the transition as quickly as will be required, from where he was last year to what he'll need to be this year. But if anybody can do it, it's someone who works as hard as he does. Still, we'll see...I'm excited/nervous.

Me too man, me too. Its going to be fun to watch how it all works out, and if its not working out, I expect to hear why, what we are doing to fix it, and how we plan to move forward. I really think we're gonna see Tommy get comfortable out there again and "just play football".

The offensive line needs to do their part. Using any interception in the MSU game against Tommy seems a little ridiculous. Most of us would've been throwing the ball into the dirt and ducking for cover as fast as those MSU DE's were coming.

 

[Lyons in the Sea of Red.]

Am I the only one who somewhat wishes we could have seen Beck a year without the Bo handcuffs on? The bowl game, that's what I was hoping to get from Beck in looking at his old film. And we scored, a lot.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Just rewatched the MSU pick TA threw at the end again to be sure. Sorry, you can talk routes until you're blue in the face but I just don't see it as the recievers fault.

He could have went left into the open space but instead he went right, towards the sideline. Looked to me like TA never even looked for him even though he had time. The defender had already planted in, knew exactly where TA was throwing, so the receiver should probably adjust and get into open space right?

I'm not a WR or QB coach but this one still looks like it's on Tommy. Cue the schematical response defending the interceptin in 3...2...1...

I think you are looking at the wrong receiver. The receivers ran into each other. The inside receiver did not run the correct rout and it caused him to run into Hovey who was supposed to be where Tommy threw the ball.

The receiver Im looking at is on the sideline under the defender. If it was another receiver who was supposed to be there and fell down, that makes a difference.

However, I still look at it and think TA had time to at least look before releasing. I mean the defender was planted in exactly the right spot. So TA doesnt have to look for his receiver because the receiver should just be there? Well then what was he looking at? Was he watching the receiver he wanted to throw to fall down? An MSU cheerleader?

The receiver didn't fall all the way down but running into each other delayed the WR to getting to the spot. It was a rout that Tommy would typically throw to a spot and the receiver is supposed to be there. Meaning, he releases the ball before the receiver is actually there.

Pretty much anyone, other than you, who I have heard look at that play says it happened because the receivers ran into each other. In fact, I even remember the announcers talking about how it really was a well thrown ball.

The problem was that I think Bell was injured and couldn't play that down. So, we had backups in the game. The common theme was that if Bell would have been in the game, the receivers would not have been screwed up.

 

[Enhance]

I have a question on QB play.

The constant complaint of Tommy staring down receivers or not going through is progressions has been a constant complaint with Nebraska QBs for a very long time.

So, my question is, if the WR has options as to what rout they are going to run and the QB is expected to look one way and immediately turn and throw to the receiver, wouldn't that be much more difficult if you don't know exactly what rout the receiver is running on the side that you aren't looking at but eventually going to throw to?

In my mind, it would be MUCH easier having confidence going through progressions if WRs have set routs they are going to run and the QB should know where each WR is on each play.

I obviously have never played QB or WR but...is my thought process on this correct? If the QB has confidence in knowing where the WR is going to be, he is more likely to look off a safety and then back quickly and release the pass. Instead, if the WR has options, the QB has to either watch the WR or at least turn back with enough time to realize what is happening on that side of the field.

Not totally correct. The defense is what determines what route the WR runs, so the QB should be able to say, if they are in a 2 high look, the WR is running this route or if they are blitzing from this side and playing cover 3 over the top they run this route, etc. That's a major simplification but the idea is that you shouldn't ever have to stare down receivers to know where they are going. You read the defense, you know where your receiver 'should' be going.

Okay, so when the defense moves?.................then what exactly?

I think you're wrong on this. I don't care if Tommy's aunt is Miss Cleo, there's no way to read a guys mind and know where he's going to go. Even if they were on the same page, Tommy is still going to look to make sure he's there and he's not gonna be able to let the ball go until the guy gets there. I'd love to hear the fans complain after hearing that. "Tommy, how did you throw 8 interceptions tonight?" "Well, the receiver was supposed to be there, so I just go ahead and throw it where I think he "should" be heading."?

Also, think about the times we have four wide receivers. You're telling me Tommy has to read the defense and know exactly where all four guys are going to be going according to how the defense is lined up? Then, again, when the defense shifts before the snap, you're kind of SOL aren't ya?

No way this is a plan for success.

Actually, he has the right idea, but as he admitted, what he explained is a major simplification. Very major. Honestly, in about two minutes, Tom Brady and a guy like Wes Welker could begin to explain how they worked through their progressions and routes, and the vast majority of this board would be left with a dumb face and drool coming out of their mouth. Now let me stop anyone from saying I'm comparing Brady to Armstrong - all I'm saying is that the passing game, especially at an elite level, is intensely complex. Intensely. Even explaining a route tree to a lot off college football fans would leave them confused.

For starters, some routes are pre-determined, others are option routes. The complexity of the offense creates the complexity of the passing game. I read an article once talking about the Steelers' passing game with Hines Ward - sometimes, Ward would have the option to break at 2, 4, 8, 10 or 12 yards (something like that) into a route. How did Ben know when Ward would make his break? He'd wait for Ward's hips to drop. It's really not as easy as just looking left or right for these guys.

So, the WR's and QB's read the defense and will make pre-snap adjustments based on what they see. Now, in a brief example, let's say you hike the ball. The WR has a choice to run a dig or out route - the corner is playing the receiver loose on the inside and the safety is nowhere to be seen. In this case, it may make sense for the WR to a run a dig route, and both the QB and WR need to see the same thing and be on the same page. Else, if the QB sees an out instead of a dig, the ball may get thrown the wrong way.

While writing this response I found one article that lightly grazes the surface of option routes. If you're interested, here's the link. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutdown-corner/option-routes-why-drive-receivers-crazy-233247212--nfl.html

They have a decent diagram of one play and, as you can see, at least three receivers have one form of an option route, and one of them can go one of four ways. It's up to the QB and WR to see the same thing, the WR to go the correct way, and the QB to still throw an accurate pass.

 

[kchusker_chris]

You know they call plays, right? Like, there are set routes? This isn't backyard football where players are running around aimlessly. I actually cannot tell if you are joking or not. Tommy indeed knows exactly where his receivers will be going without looking by the design of the play. If not he needs to read his playbook more.

let me see if I'm following this correctly: guy suggests it would be much easier to read WRs if they ran predefined routes - you respond that the routes can't be pre-determined because defense dictates route - guy responds if they are running all over the place it has to be more difficult to read - you now respond that they do in fact run pre-determined routes because it's not backyard football and TA knows where his receivers are going. did you just lose an argument w/ yourself?

 

[cg_8]

Some route combo's have built in reads depending on coverage.

The simplest to explain is the 4 verts. A team (Texas Tech in the Leach days) could run "4 verts" numerous times in a drive and it could look different every time. To us 4 verts just sounds like all guys just run seams and streaks/fades! Go!

But actually, only one guy (Y) runs a seam every time. He owns the hash he is on. The other inside guy (Z) attacks the safeties, taking advantage of the way they move. Depending on the coverage it could be a seam, a long post, a short post, or a "pop" pass depending on if there's a blitz (he's told to look back when he passes the LB's in this case).

The outside guys run a streak or fade depending on coverage, or if they can beat their guy. If not, they run a comeback. Sometimes, it can be pre-determined depending on coverage. For example, in a Cover 3, you can run the comeback to an outside WR with ease. Which is why you see a comeback sometimes and you weren't thinking "That was 4 verts".

That's where quarters comes in. Quarters is decent against 4 verts. Bo's "pattern match zone" (or whatever you want to call it) was good against 4 verts. So of course, we didn't see a lot of 4 verts during some of the games against Texas Tech while Leach was there. So Leach had a different game plan for Nebraska. Which is where we see Leach's crossing pattern routes, also known as "Mesh". Which Leach favored against us.

In other words, some of these concepts have reads built in. I know we ran the 4 verts numerous times while Beck was here.

I saw once during the USC game that we ran it, and Westerkamp ran the seam despite the fact that the safety was already where the seam was going. Tommy threw the obvious post, since it was open. In the end, Tommy looked inaccurate despite the fact that he made the correct read. There's more than a couple times I can think of where the issue was due to bad reads by either QB or WR, or both.

 

[kchusker_chris]

Beck said before last year that he was giving the WRs more freedom to adjust their route during the play to get open, ie: TA has no real clue where they are going to be, especially on deep routes where the ball is in the air longer and the adjustments are magnified by that extended duration. So yeah, I'd think dictated routes at the snap of the ball are going to improve accuracy and reads.

Where I'd like to see TA improve is in throwing his receivers open. It might not be placed exactly where the route was determined to be, but outside shoulder versus inside, underthrow a WR and let them make the play or draw a PI, jump balls, etc. That's where the receiver needs to make the adjustment, not turning an out into a post or some other manifestation of the original play just because there is an open spot on the field. Maybe after a play breaks down, but not within the progressions.