Camping Out: Quarterbacks

[JJ Husker]

Actually, he has the right idea, but as he admitted, what he explained is a major simplification. Very major. Honestly, in about two minutes, Tom Brady and a guy like Wes Welker could begin to explain how they worked through their progressions and routes, and the vast majority of this board would be left with a dumb face and drool coming out of their mouth. Now let me stop anyone from saying I'm comparing Brady to Armstrong - all I'm saying is that the passing game, especially at an elite level, is intensely complex. Intensely. Even explaining a route tree to a lot off college football fans would leave them confused.

For starters, some routes are pre-determined, others are option routes. The complexity of the offense creates the complexity of the passing game. I read an article once talking about the Steelers' passing game with Hines Ward - sometimes, Ward would have the option to break at 2, 4, 8, 10 or 12 yards (something like that) into a route. How did Ben know when Ward would make his break? He'd wait for Ward's hips to drop. It's really not as easy as just looking left or right for these guys.

So, the WR's and QB's read the defense and will make pre-snap adjustments based on what they see. Now, in a brief example, let's say you hike the ball. The WR has a choice to run a dig or out route - the corner is playing the receiver loose on the inside and the safety is nowhere to be seen. In this case, it may make sense for the WR to a run a dig route, and both the QB and WR need to see the same thing and be on the same page. Else, if the QB sees an out instead of a dig, the ball may get thrown the wrong way.

While writing this response I found one article that lightly grazes the surface of option routes. If you're interested, here's the link. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutdown-corner/option-routes-why-drive-receivers-crazy-233247212--nfl.html

They have a decent diagram of one play and, as you can see, at least three receivers have one form of an option route, and one of them can go one of four ways. It's up to the QB and WR to see the same thing, the WR to go the correct way, and the QB to still throw an accurate pass.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I have a question on QB play.

The constant complaint of Tommy staring down receivers or not going through is progressions has been a constant complaint with Nebraska QBs for a very long time.

So, my question is, if the WR has options as to what rout they are going to run and the QB is expected to look one way and immediately turn and throw to the receiver, wouldn't that be much more difficult if you don't know exactly what rout the receiver is running on the side that you aren't looking at but eventually going to throw to?

In my mind, it would be MUCH easier having confidence going through progressions if WRs have set routs they are going to run and the QB should know where each WR is on each play.

I obviously have never played QB or WR but...is my thought process on this correct? If the QB has confidence in knowing where the WR is going to be, he is more likely to look off a safety and then back quickly and release the pass. Instead, if the WR has options, the QB has to either watch the WR or at least turn back with enough time to realize what is happening on that side of the field.

Not totally correct. The defense is what determines what route the WR runs, so the QB should be able to say, if they are in a 2 high look, the WR is running this route or if they are blitzing from this side and playing cover 3 over the top they run this route, etc. That's a major simplification but the idea is that you shouldn't ever have to stare down receivers to know where they are going. You read the defense, you know where your receiver 'should' be going.

Okay, so when the defense moves?.................then what exactly?

I think you're wrong on this. I don't care if Tommy's aunt is Miss Cleo, there's no way to read a guys mind and know where he's going to go. Even if they were on the same page, Tommy is still going to look to make sure he's there and he's not gonna be able to let the ball go until the guy gets there. I'd love to hear the fans complain after hearing that. "Tommy, how did you throw 8 interceptions tonight?" "Well, the receiver was supposed to be there, so I just go ahead and throw it where I think he "should" be heading."?

Also, think about the times we have four wide receivers. You're telling me Tommy has to read the defense and know exactly where all four guys are going to be going according to how the defense is lined up? Then, again, when the defense shifts before the snap, you're kind of SOL aren't ya?

No way this is a plan for success.

Actually, he has the right idea, but as he admitted, what he explained is a major simplification. Very major. Honestly, in about two minutes, Tom Brady and a guy like Wes Welker could begin to explain how they worked through their progressions and routes, and the vast majority of this board would be left with a dumb face and drool coming out of their mouth. Now let me stop anyone from saying I'm comparing Brady to Armstrong - all I'm saying is that the passing game, especially at an elite level, is intensely complex. Intensely. Even explaining a route tree to a lot off college football fans would leave them confused.

For starters, some routes are pre-determined, others are option routes. The complexity of the offense creates the complexity of the passing game. I read an article once talking about the Steelers' passing game with Hines Ward - sometimes, Ward would have the option to break at 2, 4, 8, 10 or 12 yards (something like that) into a route. How did Ben know when Ward would make his break? He'd wait for Ward's hips to drop. It's really not as easy as just looking left or right for these guys.

So, the WR's and QB's read the defense and will make pre-snap adjustments based on what they see. Now, in a brief example, let's say you hike the ball. The WR has a choice to run a dig or out route - the corner is playing the receiver loose on the inside and the safety is nowhere to be seen. In this case, it may make sense for the WR to a run a dig route, and both the QB and WR need to see the same thing and be on the same page. Else, if the QB sees an out instead of a dig, the ball may get thrown the wrong way.

While writing this response I found one article that lightly grazes the surface of option routes. If you're interested, here's the link. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/shutdown-corner/option-routes-why-drive-receivers-crazy-233247212--nfl.html

They have a decent diagram of one play and, as you can see, at least three receivers have one form of an option route, and one of them can go one of four ways. It's up to the QB and WR to see the same thing, the WR to go the correct way, and the QB to still throw an accurate pass.

With college kids having limited time in practice and us using a Freshman then a sophomore QB (Armstrong's first two years) along with college making the WR corp basically changing every year........True's last sentence still is correct.

Also, if a QB is having to watch a WR to see how his hips move before he knows what rout he is running......ummmm....doesn't that basically require the QB to "stare down the WR"? Which...was my first question.

 

[Enhance]

With college kids having limited time in practice and us using a Freshman then a sophomore QB (Armstrong's first two years) along with college making the WR corp basically changing every year........True's last sentence still is correct.

Also, if a QB is having to watch a WR to see how his hips move before he knows what rout he is running......ummmm....doesn't that basically require the QB to "stare down the WR"? Which...was my first question.

I never said this was the complexity of the Husker offense. All I said was that option routes, and the passing game in general, can be an insanely complex organism. His last sentence is correct only in the sense that it's not a recipe for success when the players can't do it.

Obviously, the complexity of a college offense probably is not going to be the extent you'll see in the NFL because of time constraints and experience. A lot of players probably just can't handle it. But, some may be able to, to a degree.

To answer your first question, a direct quote from an offensive coordinator should suffice.

The repetition of defined throws turned average players like Matt Hasselbeck into stars, and gifted passers like Joe Montana and Brett Favre into Hall of Famers. But with receivers now running left or right rather than exact routes, quarterbacks have to find more creative hints telling them to throw.

For example, on Pittsburgh's option route -- called 2 Way Go -- Ward can break left or right at 4, 6, 8 or 14 yards. In the span of one-and-a-half to two seconds, how does Ben Roethlisberger know when Ward is going to cut?

"He waits for Hines' hips to drop," says offensive coordinator Bruce Arians.

This is why football coaches don't talk real strategy in front of fans/media. People simply just don't get it, and turn their frustrations to criticism.

 

[BigRedBuster]

With college kids having limited time in practice and us using a Freshman then a sophomore QB (Armstrong's first two years) along with college making the WR corp basically changing every year........True's last sentence still is correct.

Also, if a QB is having to watch a WR to see how his hips move before he knows what rout he is running......ummmm....doesn't that basically require the QB to "stare down the WR"? Which...was my first question.

I never said this was the complexity of the Husker offense. All I said was that option routes, and the passing game in general, can be an insanely complex organism. His last sentence is correct only in the sense that it's not a recipe for success when the players can't do it.

Obviously, the complexity of a college offense probably is not going to be the extent you'll see in the NFL because of time constraints and experience. A lot of players probably just can't handle it. But, some may be able to, to a degree.

To answer your first question, a direct quote from an offensive coordinator should suffice.

The repetition of defined throws turned average players like Matt Hasselbeck into stars, and gifted passers like Joe Montana and Brett Favre into Hall of Famers. But with receivers now running left or right rather than exact routes, quarterbacks have to find more creative hints telling them to throw.

For example, on Pittsburgh's option route -- called 2 Way Go -- Ward can break left or right at 4, 6, 8 or 14 yards. In the span of one-and-a-half to two seconds, how does Ben Roethlisberger know when Ward is going to cut?

"He waits for Hines' hips to drop," says offensive coordinator Bruce Arians.

This is why football coaches don't talk real strategy in front of fans/media. People simply just don't get it, and turn their frustrations to criticism.

I fully understood the quote from the coach. It really wasn't that complex of a concept to understand. However, it is EXTREMELY complex for the QB and WR to be on the same page. It literally takes hours and hours and game after game to be able to be on that same page. Ward might run that rout one way and if he gets hurt, the backup might run it differently enough that it throws off the Roethlisberger.

 

[cg_8]

Also, if a QB is having to watch a WR to see how his hips move before he knows what rout he is running......ummmm....doesn't that basically require the QB to "stare down the WR"? Which...was my first question.

Yes, Tommy had to stare the WR down in some cases, in order to determine that the WR is making the same read as himself. Otherwise, you get issues like the pick 6 against McNeese St. Tommy threw what looked like a wheel, or a fade. But Westerkamp ran a quick out.

 

[Enhance]

I fully understood the quote from the coach. It really wasn't that complex of a concept to understand. However, it is EXTREMELY complex for the QB and WR to be on the same page. It literally takes hours and hours and game after game to be able to be on that same page. Ward might run that rout one way and if he gets hurt, the backup might run it differently enough that it throws off the Roethlisberger.

You're absolutely correct. That's why QB's spend so much time with their WR's working on timing and chemistry. It's critical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're getting at is you don't think it's productive to do these kinds of routes if the QB and WR don't have the time to put in the work and make the plays successful. And you're right - if they can't do it, it's not productive. But, college defenses are often good enough that you need to be able to spruce up your attack, and in Riley's type of offense, option routes may be applicable. Just like they were with Beck.

So, in one breath it appeared you were criticizing option routes in general, and in another breath it seems you're criticizing their use at Nebraska. Both different things there. If our players can't get it down then it would be unwise to force them, and as Riley has said, he's not a guy who wants to force players into things they're not good at.

My whole purpose was mainly just explaining option routes and their application, not their validity in our offense.

 

[Redux]

So, what the general consensus from that play is, the receiver was in over his head on the play and stumbled resulting in a pick.

None of the blame can be put on Tommy for dumping the pass into a defenders hands? Even if the receiver knows the route like the back of his hand and keeps his footing, he still woulda had to have plowed through the defender to have a chance at it.

Better question, why were we running plays that had such a high potential to be picked off?

 

[desertshox]

So, what the general consensus from that play is, the receiver was in over his head on the play and stumbled resulting in a pick.

None of the blame can be put on Tommy for dumping the pass into a defenders hands? Even if the receiver knows the route like the back of his hand and keeps his footing, he still woulda had to have plowed through the defender to have a chance at it.

Better question, why were we running plays that had such a high potential to be picked off?

or the receiver cuts under the defender. but that wouldnt be possible.

 

[Redux]

So, what the general consensus from that play is, the receiver was in over his head on the play and stumbled resulting in a pick.

None of the blame can be put on Tommy for dumping the pass into a defenders hands? Even if the receiver knows the route like the back of his hand and keeps his footing, he still woulda had to have plowed through the defender to have a chance at it.

Better question, why were we running plays that had such a high potential to be picked off?

or the receiver cuts under the defender. but that wouldnt be possible.

If the reciever cuts under I dont see it being a completion with that guy laying in wait behind him. Probably a tip then an interception. Football gods did not want us winning that game.

I understand the concept of routes. I am not a coach, just a guy on a message board. Blame the receiver. I just dont think he should have made the throw in that area. If no other option was open throw it out of bounds or run with it. Have we not seen TA throw into bad windows over and over?

 

[cg_8]

So, what the general consensus from that play is, the receiver was in over his head on the play and stumbled resulting in a pick.

None of the blame can be put on Tommy for dumping the pass into a defenders hands? Even if the receiver knows the route like the back of his hand and keeps his footing, he still woulda had to have plowed through the defender to have a chance at it.

Better question, why were we running plays that had such a high potential to be picked off?

The problem was that Hovey didn't know the route like the back of his hand. Bell would have. That is where the problem stems. Tommy probably has that timing with Bell down. But Bell wasn't in the play, Hovey was. The issue was timing and Tommy probably didn't spend too much time getting timing down with Hovey.

Keep in mind that Hovey, probably ran that play once (if that) before he had to do it in a "comeback in the 4th quarter" situation.

To me, Tommy made the correct read, and put the ball where it needed to be. However, timing was off due to Hovey just plain being inexperienced.

It's on both QB and WR.

Every passing play has a high potential to be picked off. From what I saw, it seemed like a good play call for the coverage and it would've gotten us a first down. But that's not what happened.

 

[BigRedBuster]

So, what the general consensus from that play is, the receiver was in over his head on the play and stumbled resulting in a pick.

None of the blame can be put on Tommy for dumping the pass into a defenders hands? Even if the receiver knows the route like the back of his hand and keeps his footing, he still woulda had to have plowed through the defender to have a chance at it.

Better question, why were we running plays that had such a high potential to be picked off?

Ummmm....no. He didn't "stumble". He was ran into. That threw off his timing to get to the spot. He would have been in front of the defender to catch the ball.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I fully understood the quote from the coach. It really wasn't that complex of a concept to understand. However, it is EXTREMELY complex for the QB and WR to be on the same page. It literally takes hours and hours and game after game to be able to be on that same page. Ward might run that rout one way and if he gets hurt, the backup might run it differently enough that it throws off the Roethlisberger.

You're absolutely correct. That's why QB's spend so much time with their WR's working on timing and chemistry. It's critical.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're getting at is you don't think it's productive to do these kinds of routes if the QB and WR don't have the time to put in the work and make the plays successful. And you're right - if they can't do it, it's not productive. But, college defenses are often good enough that you need to be able to spruce up your attack, and in Riley's type of offense, option routes may be applicable. Just like they were with Beck.

So, in one breath it appeared you were criticizing option routes in general, and in another breath it seems you're criticizing their use at Nebraska. Both different things there. If our players can't get it down then it would be unwise to force them, and as Riley has said, he's not a guy who wants to force players into things they're not good at.

My whole purpose was mainly just explaining option routes and their application, not their validity in our offense.

My point is three fold:

1) Yes, if the players don't have the time to put in to get the chemistry down, it is a bad idea to run that complex of a system at Nebraska.

2) Tommy is constantly criticized for "staring down" receivers. I believe that is in part due to him needing to watch receivers to know what rout they are running before he throws the ball. It would be much more difficult to look one way and throw the other if he doesn't know where the receiver is going to be.

3) I have said many times, I believe many of the "bad throws" or interceptions or near interceptions are due to the QB and WR not being on the same page in this system. In this thread there have been two notable ones mentioned. There were more.

Hopefully by changing this system our passing game improves.

And, yes, I still understand our passing game is going to be complex and it needs to be. But, my understanding is that it will be easier for the players to be on the same page.

 

[Redux]

Can I blame Tommy for the piss poor throw on 1st and 10 of that drive where he completely botches a wide open Abdullah or was that Abdullah's fault somehow?

 

[bale]

You know they call plays, right? Like, there are set routes? This isn't backyard football where players are running around aimlessly. I actually cannot tell if you are joking or not. Tommy indeed knows exactly where his receivers will be going without looking by the design of the play. If not he needs to read his playbook more.

let me see if I'm following this correctly: guy suggests it would be much easier to read WRs if they ran predefined routes - you respond that the routes can't be pre-determined because defense dictates route - guy responds if they are running all over the place it has to be more difficult to read - you now respond that they do in fact run pre-determined routes because it's not backyard football and TA knows where his receivers are going. did you just lose an argument w/ yourself?

...no. Having options does not imply that they are running around aimlessly. They have set routes with multiple options. These options are determined by the coverage. They then run a specific route based upon the coverage. The QB can understand where his receiver will go if he is also reading the defense the same way.

I suggest learning how to tease through an argument before turning into an arrogant prick.

 

[cg_8]

Can I blame Tommy for the piss poor throw on 1st and 10 of that drive where he completely botches a wide open Abdullah or was that Abdullah's fault somehow?

Just say you don't like Tommy and move on. Either way, your questions have been good ones, and valuable too. There's actually football discussion! I can tell it's almost football season!