Target, Bathrooms, & a PC culture

HuskerShark said:
AR Husker Fan said:
While more objective, it also makes a criminal out of a father that takes his daughter into the ladies' room or makes a criminal out of the daughter the father takes into the men's room - or makes a criminal out of the mother that takes the son into the men's room or makes a criminal out of the son the mother takes into the ladies' room.

You do realize that it is NOT a crime right now for a man to use a woman's restroom or vice versa, right? The criminal conduct is if the person using the "wrong" restroom exposes himself or herself, or engages in voyeuristic acts, or so forth. And that's why these anti-transgender bills are simply nothing more than grandstanding and fear-mongering. If someone is inclined to commit a crime in the "opposite" bathroom, the fear of being arrested simply BECAUSE they use the "opposite" bathroom is not a deterrent insofar as simply entering the bathroom or using the facilities upon entering does not constitute a crime.
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It's socially acceptable currently to take a young boy or girl into the opposite gender's bathroom until the parent feels they're old enough to go into their own restroom on their own. No, a mother shouldn't take her young son into the men's room. And no, a father shouldn't take his young daughter into the women's restroom. That discussion is irrelevant.
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Actually, it's not. It directly addresses the point YOU raised regarding removing the subjectivity in the law. Again, the point YOU raised. So, unless you are admitting that YOUR point is irrelevant...

HuskerShark said:
As far as your 2nd point, (I assume you are a man) try walking into the women's restroom sometime and see what happens.
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Ah, now we DO get to something irrelevant. Their reaction is irrelevant as to whether it's a crime.

 
HuskerShark said:
As far as your 2nd point, (I assume you are a man) try walking into the women's restroom sometime and see what happens.
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Trans people make up .3% of the population. Out of that small demographic, there is an even smaller demographic of trans people that are legally one gender, but look/act/behave/present as the other while still having their original genitalia. These people are discriminated against so it's a good idea to give them protection and safety, and it's incredibly statistically unlikely that anyone else will ever be negatively affected by such laws.

 
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
HuskerShark said:
As far as your 2nd point, (I assume you are a man) try walking into the women's restroom sometime and see what happens.
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Trans people make up .3% of the population. Out of that small demographic, there is an even smaller demographic of trans people that are legally one gender, but look/act/behave/present as the other while still having their original genitalia. These people are discriminated against so it's a good idea to give them protection and safety, and it's incredibly statistically unlikely that anyone else will ever be negatively affected by such laws.
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So what's to stop someone who's NOT transgender who wants to sneak a peek while using the women's restroom. Once again, I'm not saying they walk in and kick the bathroom stall door open while a woman is peeing. I'm talking about a guy who discreetly wants to get a look at what's going on in the women's restroom.

Chances are, if a person is truly transgender, they will probably appear like the other gender. Chances are, no one would notice if this person chose to use the opposite bathroom since they appear that way. There's no need to change the laws to fit those situations.

The issue we're talking about is the Pandora's box that is being opened by saying, "Any person gets to choose the bathroom they want to use because who are we to judge you for what gender you feel like." That type of thing opens up a variety of issues that didn't need to be confronted before this policy was brought to our attention.

 
Issues such as what? A women's restroom is a series of stalls, with doors. If someone wants to go into one to peek, they have to plug their head to the cracks in the door. That's pretty easily seen, and it's crime (usually if it's for the purpose of sexual gratification). Again, I can legally enter the "opposite" bathroom now; I don't have to dress as a woman. It's the "peeking" that's abhorrent, and hence a crime. The anti-transgender laws provide no extra level of protection, but DOES criminalize the act of entering even though the individual identifies as a woman. And if he does identify as a woman, he's entering to utilize the facilities, not to go to the stall doors and peek at the occupants.

The real danger to women in a women's bathroom is from sexual predators that go where women may be found alone. They don't feel the need to dress as a woman to prey on women.

Try looking at the number of cases in which a transgender person preyed on a member of the opposite sex in the bathroom.

 
AR Husker Fan said:
While more objective, it also makes a criminal out of a father that takes his daughter into the ladies' room or makes a criminal out of the daughter the father takes into the men's room - or makes a criminal out of the mother that takes the son into the men's room or makes a criminal out of the son the mother takes into the ladies' room.

You do realize that it is NOT a crime right now for a man to use a woman's restroom or vice versa, right? The criminal conduct is if the person using the "wrong" restroom exposes himself or herself, or engages in voyeuristic acts, or so forth. And that's why these anti-transgender bills are simply nothing more than grandstanding and fear-mongering. If someone is inclined to commit a crime in the "opposite" bathroom, the fear of being arrested simply BECAUSE they use the "opposite" bathroom is not a deterrent insofar as simply entering the bathroom or using the facilities upon entering does not constitute a crime.
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While you have a point.... there are counters.

I am male. Is it illegal for me to enter a male bathroom and just simply stand there while people walk in and out? No. Maybe I don't feel good, so I'm just standing there while it passes. Or I'm waiting for a friend so I'm just camping out.

Would people find it weird if I just walked in to a women's restroom and stood there? Smiled and waved at the ladies as they passed me? Technically I wouldn't be breaking any laws. And if you did accuse me of breaking any laws, I'd call you a bigot and a hateful POS, etc. Do we need to make a legal definition of "using a bathroom"? It's a can of worms that, IMO, doesn't need to be opened.

 
AR Husker Fan said:
HuskerShark said:
As far as your 2nd point, (I assume you are a man) try walking into the women's restroom sometime and see what happens.
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Ah, now we DO get to something irrelevant. Their reaction is irrelevant as to whether it's a crime.
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That's so sh**ty though. Bathrooms should be a place where privacy is expected. That's the whole issue with this PC culture, that I should have to expect to feel uncomfortable because we need to accomodate .3% of the population. At what point does their level of comfort trump mine and almost everyone else's?

I have a gun and a permit that shows I'm legally allowed to carry it. I walk around waving it because it's fun to do and because I have a piece of paper that says I can carry it. It makes people extremely uncomfortable, as I'm sure it would you. Should someone stop me from doing it?

 
Semi related anecdote. A few years ago, my wife was trying on a dress at JC Penny, and asked me to come back in the hallway and look. If you've been in one, you know how it's a hallway with stalls on one (or both) sides. I stood right by the entrance in the hall, looked down as she came out, and told her I liked it.

Somebody complained, and I was asked to leave that section of the store by an employee. I was very angry, but didn't feel like picking a fight with her, so we found the store manager, told them they lost our business, and we didn't buy the dress.

Conversely, it almost goes without failure that when I've been in a changing area for men, there's always a mother/wife standing in that area, or entering in the hall or even the room (remember your mom doing the pants jiggle?).

I hate hypocritical double standards. IMO, just go with gender neutral bathrooms across the board.

 
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HuskerShark said:
AR Husker Fan said:
When a company makes the kind of decision Target made, it is based on a careful calculation of how it will affect the bottom line,. My guess is that for most people, it's a non-issue and Target wants to appeal to the largest shopping population possible.

What makes this an issue is fear-mongering and opportunity. Bring up a virtually non-existent "problem", demonize it, then act as the crusader that will save civilization.
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Not true whatsoever. Allowing people to choose which bathroom they want to use is a legitimate threat to individuals' safety.

Example:

A guy "feels like a lady" on Tuesdays, so he chooses to enter the women's restroom so he can be a peeping Tom.

Not OK.
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Some guy in Tennessee said "I have little girls and I am not wanting them in a bathroom alone with a 34 year old guy" My first thought was I wouldn't want little boys in a bathroom alone with a 34 year old guy.

 
Atbone95 said:
AR Husker Fan said:
While more objective, it also makes a criminal out of a father that takes his daughter into the ladies' room or makes a criminal out of the daughter the father takes into the men's room - or makes a criminal out of the mother that takes the son into the men's room or makes a criminal out of the son the mother takes into the ladies' room.

You do realize that it is NOT a crime right now for a man to use a woman's restroom or vice versa, right? The criminal conduct is if the person using the "wrong" restroom exposes himself or herself, or engages in voyeuristic acts, or so forth. And that's why these anti-transgender bills are simply nothing more than grandstanding and fear-mongering. If someone is inclined to commit a crime in the "opposite" bathroom, the fear of being arrested simply BECAUSE they use the "opposite" bathroom is not a deterrent insofar as simply entering the bathroom or using the facilities upon entering does not constitute a crime.
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While you have a point.... there are counters.

I am male. Is it illegal for me to enter a male bathroom and just simply stand there while people walk in and out? No. Maybe I don't feel good, so I'm just standing there while it passes. Or I'm waiting for a friend so I'm just camping out.

Would people find it weird if I just walked in to a women's restroom and stood there? Smiled and waved at the ladies as they passed me? Technically I wouldn't be breaking any laws. And if you did accuse me of breaking any laws, I'd call you a bigot and a hateful POS, etc. Do we need to make a legal definition of "using a bathroom"? It's a can of worms that, IMO, doesn't need to be opened.
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You asked the troubling questions certainly as anyone simply going in the bathroom of the opposite sex and simply standing around as you suggest for perhaps an hour? I would suggest someone would react negatively and more than likely a store manager would be in there confronting the 'loiterer' we shall call him or her. This is NOT 'normal' or typical as bathroom use is not for 'waiting for a friend to finish shopping' or otherwise.

Obviously, we as a society cannot reasonably anticipate all the possible fears, concerns, issues or phobias or otherwise of every single citizen at the point of making incredible high expenditures to create bathrooms for every possible subset of the public. We have for several generations atleast established a Mens and a Womens with members of each group assigned to use those to the extent possible. It is certainly NOT permissable for a man to simply use the women's restroom because he is desperate and it was readily available while the mens was in normal use. Now, if the Mens is broke down and termporarily closed, then the Womens becomes "unisex" but it is EXPECTED that when in use, it is locked off and not available for members of the opposite sex to simply enter freely.

It appears the only real solution to the entire mess being created by the transgendered folks who seem to be able to assert their desire and preference over all others is to create a restroom solution of a rather large number of Unisex (single stall with lockable entry doors) rooms. Much like a long row of "portapots" at the park or something.

This I think is very disturbing to many men and women both as many within both groups don't feel comfortable using the restroom normally assigned to the other.

I think this is exactly what the recent attempts to pass laws such as in North Carolina are trying to do - leave the status quo (as has been thought of for a hundred years) in place. We don't need to suddenly have "Traditional Men's Restroom", "Traditional Womens Restroom", Transgender Men's Restroom, Transgender Womans Restroom, "I am Not Quite Sure What I am today Restroom, etc, etc, etc. The only answer then becomes - for the sake of .03% of the population - is the complete remodel of 99% of all restrooms and facilities in the country. This is not being politically incorrect or discriminatory - it is being SANE!

 
Whatever happened to the existence of objective truth. If you're born with a penis, you're a man. If your born with a vagina you're a woman. Those are the restrooms you should use and I don't care what mental condition you have that tells you that you "identify" as the opposite sex. And it is still classified as a mental disorder in case anyone was getting upset. That fact may well be on its way to being changed but I don't believe if it is changed that will be best for all Trans people. Some of them need the diagnosis so they can get the help they need for depression and other related issues.

I don't want these people to feel put out or shamed but there are objective truths and if you were born with a penis, then you should use the men's room and vice versa. Others don't need to be subjected to your identity problems.

Having said that, I don't think it is a huge issue. It really shouldn't be an issue at all if people would just use a little common sense. And emergency/panic situations with kids doing the peepee dance, or even adults in dire situations, don't belong in this discussion. I've used a women's room before and I've taken my kids into whatever restroom was available. Luckily it never happened when it was occupied by a woman because I would have felt bad. But a persons real gender is not a subjective thing. You're either a man or a woman. If you think you should be the other, that really shouldn't be society's problem.

 
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