Denying science in the classroom

[Making Chimichangas]

It's interesting to me that there's a similarity to Trump defense and Bible/Christianity defense. It doesn't have to be logical or make sense, I just believe in it. Odd how some folks are on different sides of that coin.

It's not odd, because they're hardly similar.
With Trump, something could happen that all of us saw happening, and the next day he would say it didn't happen and to not believe what we witnessed. With Trump, there could be years of research by top scientists showing how something is, and he'll say they're wrong. There is proof for all of this.

With the Bible, some stuff happened a couple thousand years ago and was written down a couple thousand years ago by several individual witnesses (either to the events or God telling them). These authors all have different styles and what they wrote has been translated. Believing or not is based on faith and in some cases personal experiences. We can't time travel back to the supposed events. It's not really possible to prove it wrong, nor is it possible to prove it right to other people. Nobody saw any of it happening and anyone who experiences a burning bush episode can only tell other people about it.

The only way these two things are similar would be if Trump created state run media and killed or otherwise silenced all other news sources. Then we would only see what he allowed us to be shown.

I honestly believe that's one of his end games.

 

[Mierin]

It's interesting to me that there's a similarity to Trump defense and Bible/Christianity defense. It doesn't have to be logical or make sense, I just believe in it. Odd how some folks are on different sides of that coin.

It's not odd, because they're hardly similar.
With Trump, something could happen that all of us saw happening, and the next day he would say it didn't happen and to not believe what we witnessed. With Trump, there could be years of research by top scientists showing how something is, and he'll say they're wrong. There is proof for all of this.

With the Bible, some stuff happened a couple thousand years ago and was written down a couple thousand years ago by several individual witnesses (either to the events or God telling them). These authors all have different styles and what they wrote has been translated. Believing or not is based on faith and in some cases personal experiences. We can't time travel back to the supposed events. It's not really possible to prove it wrong, nor is it possible to prove it right to other people. Nobody saw any of it happening and anyone who experiences a burning bush episode can only tell other people about it.

The only way these two things are similar would be if Trump created state run media and killed or otherwise silenced all other news sources. Then we would only see what he allowed us to be shown.

I honestly believe that's one of his end games.

I go back and forth on it.

 

[JJ Husker]

Just got home from church. Boy what a waste of time. Priest reminding us to love others as ourselves and to forgive others as we would like to be forgiven. No redeeming value to that hogwash at all. Probably got some of that message out of that sham of a book the Bible.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

I didnt go to church and I already knew to do all those things because its in my moral code. I dont need someone telling me to do all those things because some guy in the sky wants me to. I just do them because its the right thing to do

 

[Ratt Mhule]

And that is not what the discussion is about. Nobody said the bible doesnt have some good teachings in it. The conversation is about if they should stop teaching science and start teaching creationsim to the children in South Dakota. And if the bible stories are true or should be taken with a grain of salt. Not about if the bible's teachings are a waste of time

 

[JJ Husker]

And that is not what the discussion is about. Nobody said the bible doesnt have some good teachings in it. The conversation is about if they should stop teaching science and start teaching creationsim to the children in South Dakota. And if the bible stories are true or should be taken with a grain of salt. Not about if the bible's teachings are a waste of time

I don't want creationism taught in public schools either. Maybe, possibly one quick passing mention that some people believe that a creator caused it to come about but then right back to the science based curriculum. Not because I want to indoctrinate them with any creation theory but, considering a vast majority of people in this country believe that very thing, I think it would be doing students a disservice to not make them aware that line of thought is out there.
And don't tell me this whole thread has been strictly about what gets taught in schools. Knapp's and yours and some others comments have not been limited to that subject. The lack of proof provided by a document like the Bible may be a very good reason to not use it as a basis for school education but when people start claiming the whole book is without merit because of some inconsistencies and a lack of scientific proof, it should come as no surprise that others like me will defend our beliefs and try to explain how that book can be a source of good.

I'm glad you know to do all those "good" things without some guy in the sky telling you you should. Many of us also know those things but find it helpful to be reminded because we aren't perfect and there is very little of that message floating around society. I figure every little bit helps. If it helps me or others try to better people, I wouldn't think anyone should have a problem with that. Unfortunately, you and others get preoccupied with those who distort the message and instead use pieces of scripture to behave as a$$hats. I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me into that category. Don't really appreciate the insinuation that church attendance or religion doesn't do some good for some people. Just because it didn't/doesn't work for you doesn't mean that's the case for others.

 

[ZRod]

Why does religion, outside of world history, belong in a public class room?

Side note: My world history teacher in high school made it a point to drive home the differences between shiite and sunni, and their conflicts. He knew that it was an extremely important facit of islam, and it was important to where we were headed. Man was he right...

We also studied Judaism and Christianity just as much, and we studied Taoism, Hindu, and some other religions. The man was a devout Christian, but he taught the details of every religion as best he could in the time allotted, and without prejudice. He was an excellent public educator and knew the power of being knowledgeable in any religion, but did not cloud it with his beliefs.

 

[knapplc]

And that is not what the discussion is about. Nobody said the bible doesnt have some good teachings in it. The conversation is about if they should stop teaching science and start teaching creationsim to the children in South Dakota. And if the bible stories are true or should be taken with a grain of salt. Not about if the bible's teachings are a waste of time

I don't want creationism taught in public schools either. Maybe, possibly one quick passing mention that some people believe that a creator caused it to come about but then right back to the science based curriculum. Not because I want to indoctrinate them with any creation theory but, considering a vast majority of people in this country believe that very thing, I think it would be doing students a disservice to not make them aware that line of thought is out there.And don't tell me this whole thread has been strictly about what gets taught in schools. Knapp's and yours and some others comments have not been limited to that subject. The lack of proof provided by a document like the Bible may be a very good reason to not use it as a basis for school education but when people start claiming the whole book is without merit because of some inconsistencies and a lack of scientific proof, it should come as no surprise that others like me will defend our beliefs and try to explain how that book can be a source of good.

I'm glad you know to do all those "good" things without some guy in the sky telling you you should. Many of us also know those things but find it helpful to be reminded because we aren't perfect and there is very little of that message floating around society. I figure every little bit helps. If it helps me or others try to better people, I wouldn't think anyone should have a problem with that. Unfortunately, you and others get preoccupied with those who distort the message and instead use pieces of scripture to behave as a$$hats. I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me into that category. Don't really appreciate the insinuation that church attendance or religion doesn't do some good for some people. Just because it didn't/doesn't work for you doesn't mean that's the case for others.

I agree with the first part of your last paragraph. I haven't insinuated, nor have I seen, the 2nd half of that paragraph in this thread.

 

[Landlord]

Okay, Ill change my quote. People wouldnt know Jesus is God in the flesh without the Bible. Is that better?

Nobody knows that. But if you're talking about people believing that...

Well, maybe, if you don't count the apostles, as well as the thousands Jesus ministred to, as well as the thousands that believed on Pentecost, as well as at least 2-3 generations in the churches in Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, Thessalonica, Rome, etc.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

Okay, Ill change my quote. People wouldnt know Jesus is God in the flesh without the Bible. Is that better?

Nobody knows that. But if you're talking about people believing that...

Well, maybe, if you don't count the apostles, as well as the thousands Jesus ministred to, as well as the thousands that believed on Pentecost, as well as at least 2-3 generations in the churches in Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, Thessalonica, Rome, etc.

Im talking about in modern times. Not in the times of Jesus or a few generations after.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

And that is not what the discussion is about. Nobody said the bible doesnt have some good teachings in it. The conversation is about if they should stop teaching science and start teaching creationsim to the children in South Dakota. And if the bible stories are true or should be taken with a grain of salt. Not about if the bible's teachings are a waste of time

I don't want creationism taught in public schools either. Maybe, possibly one quick passing mention that some people believe that a creator caused it to come about but then right back to the science based curriculum. Not because I want to indoctrinate them with any creation theory but, considering a vast majority of people in this country believe that very thing, I think it would be doing students a disservice to not make them aware that line of thought is out there.And don't tell me this whole thread has been strictly about what gets taught in schools. Knapp's and yours and some others comments have not been limited to that subject. The lack of proof provided by a document like the Bible may be a very good reason to not use it as a basis for school education but when people start claiming the whole book is without merit because of some inconsistencies and a lack of scientific proof, it should come as no surprise that others like me will defend our beliefs and try to explain how that book can be a source of good.

I'm glad you know to do all those "good" things without some guy in the sky telling you you should. Many of us also know those things but find it helpful to be reminded because we aren't perfect and there is very little of that message floating around society. I figure every little bit helps. If it helps me or others try to better people, I wouldn't think anyone should have a problem with that. Unfortunately, you and others get preoccupied with those who distort the message and instead use pieces of scripture to behave as a$$hats. I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me into that category. Don't really appreciate the insinuation that church attendance or religion doesn't do some good for some people. Just because it didn't/doesn't work for you doesn't mean that's the case for others.

There is nothing wrong with being religious or going to church, so I apologize if you think im attacking your beliefs. Many in my family are Christian and my girlfriend is Jewish. Your comment kind of came out of nowhere since I didnt see anyone saying the bible does not have some good teachings. Like every holy book, there is some bad and there is some good. But your comment kind of came off as Im better than you because I went to church. Thats probably not how you wanted it to come off, so I apologize for my snarky response.

Im actually enjoying this thread quite a bit. Its interesting that a lot of Christians do not take the bible literally. I was always taught different and all the people I knew took it literally. So its cool to hear why some people dont. I agree with Knapp because that is the way my church taught it, not because Im attacking anyones beliefs.

 

[JJ Husker]

I agree with the first part of your last paragraph. I haven't insinuated, nor have I seen, the 2nd half of that paragraph in this thread.

I didnt go to church and I already knew to do all those things because its in my moral code. I dont need someone telling me to do all those things because some guy in the sky wants me to. I just do them because its the right thing to do

Maybe you missed this post of Rike's.

I'm not claiming he said any of those things about me directly but the implication of his post is that church attendence is worthless. Why else point out that it isnt needed? And I also did a bit of reading between the lines based on his other recent posts about God, the Bible and religion. I was simply replying to the implication and preemptively requesting to not be catagorized with those Christians who bastardize the message of the religion.

I may have precipitated that response with my snarky comment about my church attendance this evening so I'll apologize for that. But sometimes I find that approach to be fairly effective at making a point.

 

[JJ Husker]

And that is not what the discussion is about. Nobody said the bible doesnt have some good teachings in it. The conversation is about if they should stop teaching science and start teaching creationsim to the children in South Dakota. And if the bible stories are true or should be taken with a grain of salt. Not about if the bible's teachings are a waste of time

I don't want creationism taught in public schools either. Maybe, possibly one quick passing mention that some people believe that a creator caused it to come about but then right back to the science based curriculum. Not because I want to indoctrinate them with any creation theory but, considering a vast majority of people in this country believe that very thing, I think it would be doing students a disservice to not make them aware that line of thought is out there.And don't tell me this whole thread has been strictly about what gets taught in schools. Knapp's and yours and some others comments have not been limited to that subject. The lack of proof provided by a document like the Bible may be a very good reason to not use it as a basis for school education but when people start claiming the whole book is without merit because of some inconsistencies and a lack of scientific proof, it should come as no surprise that others like me will defend our beliefs and try to explain how that book can be a source of good.

I'm glad you know to do all those "good" things without some guy in the sky telling you you should. Many of us also know those things but find it helpful to be reminded because we aren't perfect and there is very little of that message floating around society. I figure every little bit helps. If it helps me or others try to better people, I wouldn't think anyone should have a problem with that. Unfortunately, you and others get preoccupied with those who distort the message and instead use pieces of scripture to behave as a$$hats. I'd appreciate it if you didn't lump me into that category. Don't really appreciate the insinuation that church attendance or religion doesn't do some good for some people. Just because it didn't/doesn't work for you doesn't mean that's the case for others.

There is nothing wrong with being religious or going to church, so I apologize if you think im attacking your beliefs. Many in my family are Christian and my girlfriend is Jewish. Your comment kind of came out of nowhere since I didnt see anyone saying the bible does not have some good teachings. Like every holy book, there is some bad and there is some good. But your comment kind of came off as Im better than you because I went to church. Thats probably not how you wanted it to come off, so I apologize for my snarky response.

Im actually enjoying this thread quite a bit. Its interesting that a lot of Christians do not take the bible literally. I was always taught different and all the people I knew took it literally. So its cool to hear why some people dont. I agree with Knapp because that is the way my church taught it, not because Im attacking anyones beliefs.

No problem. And I understand why a person might take the "I just went to church" thing as an I'm better than you thing. That is not how I intended it at all. The funny thing is, I sort of took your comment that you don't need to go to church for those things also as an I'm better than you thing. It's all good though.

Religion and politics....gotta love it.

 

[JJ Husker]

I've shared this before but I think it bears repeating because it has had a profound effect on my spiritual life.

I was raised Lutheran (Missouri Synod). That was my religion for the first 30 years of my life. I converted to Catholicism about 22 years ago. That was done more as family convenience than anything. My wife was Catholic and wasn't about to change so....

Anyway, the profound thing was an answer a Lutheran minister gave me when I was asking some tough questions about what the religion taught. The specific issue was their teaching that unbaptized babies go to hell. His answer was "El Diaco (he used my real name), don't you think that God, in his infinite wisdom, will do the right thing?" That one answer has helped me deal with a whole host of difficult issues. It made me realize that mere men are responsible for earthly religion and they likely have gotten much of it wrong. But God surely will do the right and just thing in all cases. Now that may not address some of the other faith problems like why bad things happen to good people etc. (I won't go into my thoughts on that here) but I think it does provide a good basis for separating man caused, religion based, things from the reality of God.

 

[Landlord]

Im talking about in modern times. Not in the times of Jesus or a few generations after.

I know it was a long time ago and all, but there's a direct thread of connection back to Jesus' life. If the Bible didn't exist, I'd imagine people would still believe in the Christ, but that's a hypothetical that none of us can really offer evidence for, I suppose.

I have to say I'm still pretty confused by knapp's arguments and leaps in this thread. It seems like the classic slippery slope argument, which is actually a logical fallacy isn't it? There are plenty of parts of the Bible that we can, I think safely, infer a non-factual or literal or historic genre but that do not explicitly declare themselves to be such. The book of Job, for example, may or may not be about a real person, but do we assume that Job and his friends all spoke in well crafted stanzas? Did Jesus always disclose when he was or wasn't speaking in parables or metaphor/allegory? Do we read Revelation in a straight forward way because it is ambiguous as to whether the apocalyptic language is referring to "real" things or not? I don't know.

A possibly helpful video: