Douchebag Thread for Politics & Religion Spill Over

Do you even know what language he was speaking?
I guess you're talking to me, right? It can be a foreign language. But it doesn't necessarily have to be. For all I know it wasn't. The tongues thing was the least of the experience. For me anyway. It was all about being imbued with the Holy Spirit.

 
Do you even know what language he was speaking?
I guess you're talking to me, right? It can be a foreign language. But it doesn't necessarily have to be. For all I know it wasn't. The tongues thing was the least of the experience. For me anyway. It was all about being imbued with the Holy Spirit.
Yeah. I was just curious. Obviously I'm pretty skeptical that it was something super natural, but if it's what gives you strength and drive then good deal.
 
If you'll allow me, let me pose a question to you. You used to be a Christian; What made you lose your faith in God?
Basically, I stopped presuming there was a god and I started allowing for the possibility that gods aren't real.

I was born into a Christian family, so I became Christian. I would have been Muslim if my parents were Muslim, Jewish if my parents were Jewish, etc. I didn't question if that was the correct religion because that was the religion of my fathers.

A few years ago, I did a cover-to-cover study of the Bible that took about two years to complete. We went through every book, every verse, and really studied it. Combined with my interest in history and my knowledge of gods, myths, creation stories, and history in general, it became obvious that the stories in the Bible were just modified versions of the same stories that were being told by every other Middle-Eastern people at the time of the events in the Bible.

Combine that with a glaring lack of a god in our daily lives, and the whole "God is a loving father" story fell apart. Loving fathers are tangible presences in their children's lives. The Christian god is not, despite verse upon verse claiming he is.

During all that, I was frequently engaged in conversations with Atheists in which I defended Christianity over and over and over. Like water dripping on a rock, that constant defense of the indefensible wore away at my dogmatic beliefs and I allowed for the possibility that I wasn't right. I started considering their points rather than immediately dismissing them, and the point that god isn't real became more understandable to me.

It wasn't an instant decision, it was born over time and much thought.

I am far more convinced that the statement "there is no god" is true than I was ever convinced that the statement "God is real" is true.

 
If God doesn't exist then I am entirely at a loss to explain that experience I keep pointing back to. LINK What could it have been?
It could have been a lot of things. First of all, different people have higher expressions of the VMAT2 gene, which predisposes people to mystical/spiritual experiences. Second, just because you have a legitimate spiritual experience doesn't mean that it is a true experience. I've experienced the exact same thing you did when I was in a charismatic youth group in high school. I've come to learn that, for me, it was bullsh#t social pressure mixed in with a very authentic spiritual experience that got twisted around into meeting a certain expectation set forth. Thirdly, the human brain has a lot of different sections with different priorities, and certain things can hijack that sh#t into some seriously wild self-delusions. That's three things in a list of dozens that could have contributed to that experience.

When I was 3 my brother got hit on the highway. Broke every bone in his body. Cracked skull, broken femur, face ripped open etc. Me, my mother and two of my cousins were ten feet away and saw the whole thing. Prayer helped me believe my only friend at the time would get better.

When I was 5 I started having really bad panic attacks. Prayer helped calm me down.

In 8th grade my dad left for Iraq. He came home but others weren't so lucky. Prayer got me through it.

Anytime I'm ever afraid, anxious, nervous or whatever, prayer has helped me. I care not if it was nothing more than 'sugar pills.' These things actually happened to me and prayer actually helped. So, so what if he's not real? Did I waste my time praying? You're missing the entire point of 'faith.' Who are you to take that from someone?
If God is not real, no. You did not waste your time praying. Prayer is at least a form of meditation that encourages healthy brain tissue development, lowers stress, and connects us with an idea of something bigger than us that we can belong to.

Even if that's all prayer is, the health and psychological benefits justify the practice as being very worthwhile. Many atheists engage in prayer for this reason.

Yes, nom-understood reasoning AKA things we have yet to underatand in our evolutionary process. As we evolve we come to better understand our origins. But we will never have the answer unless there actually is an afterlife and we somehow become capable of communicating with it.
You mean things like missing data and gaps in knowledge of scientific theories and such.

Non-understood reasoning doesn't make any sense. Reason is a construct for how to deal with information. What you're saying, regardless of whether or not you mean to, is something along the lines of, "When we evolve more we will learn that 1+1=3 and that effect comes before cause, because we will find new reason."

No. Every sort of advancement of knowledge in human history that falls within the confines of objective, static, observable understanding still happens through the same sort of reasoning. There are other sorts of things that we learn through our subjective experiences and other means of dealing with info presented to us, but those fall under a different label of thought than reason.

 
Here's the truth. By the time Humanity falls, it will not have the answer. No ism will be proven correct, nor will any ism be proven wrong. If Atheism becomes the next stage of widespread ism it will be the accepted norm much like Christianity is/was.

 
If you'd have asked us 200 years ago if humans would fly, you would have confidently said no.

If you'd have asked us 100 years ago if humans would go to the moon, you would have confidently said no.

If you'd have asked us 50 years ago if humans would carry around access to all the world's information in their pocket, you'd have said no.

So don't so boldly proclaim that we'll never know something. Odds are, we'll figure it out.

 
If you'd have asked us 200 years ago if humans would fly, you would have confidently said no.If you'd have asked us 100 years ago if humans would go to the moon, you would have confidently said no.If you'd have asked us 50 years ago if humans would carry around access to all the world's information in their pocket, you'd have said no.So don't so boldly proclaim that we'll never know something. Odds are, we'll figure it out.
I usually don't like to say never either but your analogies fall quite shy of the mark. Humans hadn't been been trying to solve those things (flight, moon travel, computers and info in your pocket) for over 2000 to 4000 years before finally finding the answer. I'm thinking as long and hard as God and the source of life has been sought, talked about and studied, that the chances are pretty good that living humans will likely never have all the answers. We're pretty close to having the scientific explanation locked up but that still doesn't answer the first cause question. If we were meant to know that in a scientific factual way, we likely already would.

 
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If you'd have asked us 200 years ago if humans would fly, you would have confidently said no.If you'd have asked us 100 years ago if humans would go to the moon, you would have confidently said no.If you'd have asked us 50 years ago if humans would carry around access to all the world's information in their pocket, you'd have said no.So don't so boldly proclaim that we'll never know something. Odds are, we'll figure it out.
Technilogical advancements and the supernatural are pretty seperate entities.

 
If you'll allow me, let me pose a question to you. You used to be a Christian; What made you lose your faith in God?
Basically, I stopped presuming there was a god and I started allowing for the possibility that gods aren't real.

I was born into a Christian family, so I became Christian. I would have been Muslim if my parents were Muslim, Jewish if my parents were Jewish, etc. I didn't question if that was the correct religion because that was the religion of my fathers.

A few years ago, I did a cover-to-cover study of the Bible that took about two years to complete. We went through every book, every verse, and really studied it. Combined with my interest in history and my knowledge of gods, myths, creation stories, and history in general, it became obvious that the stories in the Bible were just modified versions of the same stories that were being told by every other Middle-Eastern people at the time of the events in the Bible.

Combine that with a glaring lack of a god in our daily lives, and the whole "God is a loving father" story fell apart. Loving fathers are tangible presences in their children's lives. The Christian god is not, despite verse upon verse claiming he is.

During all that, I was frequently engaged in conversations with Atheists in which I defended Christianity over and over and over. Like water dripping on a rock, that constant defense of the indefensible wore away at my dogmatic beliefs and I allowed for the possibility that I wasn't right. I started considering their points rather than immediately dismissing them, and the point that god isn't real became more understandable to me.

It wasn't an instant decision, it was born over time and much thought.

I am far more convinced that the statement "there is no god" is true than I was ever convinced that the statement "God is real" is true.
Fair enough. For me, there is no possibility that anything could happen that will make me doubt what I experienced was not real. But it only works for me. I can tell people about it (and I've probably done this too much). But unless they experience something similar, it just isn't likely to be persuasive. So I guess it is what it is.
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Fair enough. For me, there is no possibility that anything could happen that will make me doubt what I experienced was not real. But it only works for me. I can tell people about it (and I've probably done this too much). But unless they experience something similar, it just isn't likely to be persuasive. So I guess it is what it is.
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I've written three drafts of responses to this and deleted them all. I'm not writing #5, so #4 will have to do.

EDIT - #4 was crap, too.

Blerg.

I don't know the truth. I base my guess on the evidence I have. You do, too. As long as neither of us is hurting the other, both truths are equally good.

 
Is it possible there is a one true God but no religion (man) has got him figured out perfectly?
Yes. And Im not afraid to admit that I dont know. In fact there are times I do believe there is one true creator, but where my views differ from Christians is I dont think this creator really cares all that much about his creation. I think there is life on other planets, universes and galaxies. And we are just a VERY small part of this "Gods" creation. And other times I think Im FOS with that line of thinking.

 
Anybody who does claim to know for sure kind of scares the crap out of me. I sure don't have it all figured out. However, the one part of the puzzle I'm pretty sure of is that there is a God. My mind won't let me make sense of all of this if that is not the case. I simply cannot imagine this life all came about by random chance. I think if a person arrives at the determination that there is a God, then the logical thing to do is to follow that belief in the manner that suits you best while also trying to keep an open mind to other possibilities. This is how I am Christian but also don't have a problem with thinking there is more than one way to salvation. I guess my guiding premise is that God will do the right thing. That theory gets tested daily when we see all the terrible things that happen on this planet but I also don't believe good can happen in the absence of bad or vice versa. We would have no way of knowing what was actually good if there was no bad. I think as regards day to day life, God is pretty hands off. That may fly in the face of my Catholic Christian religion but religions are human constructs. It's doubtful any of them have every piece of the puzzle figured out.

 
We did a whole topic on this where we argued between there being one God and many religions and all of the religions requiring that only one religion could be right.

It shouldn't be surprising that even if there is only 1 God, there are several texts written about him.

 
Anybody who does claim to know for sure kind of scares the crap out of me. I sure don't have it all figured out. However, the one part of the puzzle I'm pretty sure of is that there is a God. My mind won't let me make sense of all of this if that is not the case. I simply cannot imagine this life all came about by random chance. I think if a person arrives at the determination that there is a God, then the logical thing to do is to follow that belief in the manner that suits you best while also trying to keep an open mind to other possibilities. This is how I am Christian but also don't have a problem with thinking there is more than one way to salvation. I guess my guiding premise is that God will do the right thing. That theory gets tested daily when we see all the terrible things that happen on this planet but I also don't believe good can happen in the absence of bad or vice versa. We would have no way of knowing what was actually good if there was no bad. I think as regards day to day life, God is pretty hands off. That may fly in the face of my Catholic Christian religion but religions are human constructs. It's doubtful any of them have every piece of the puzzle figured out.
This is pretty much how I feel. I know God exists. And I think Christianity mostly has it right. But I can't say that I know that other religions are incorrect. I mean, nearly every religion more or less claims to have a monopoly on God, and claims to be the one true religion. And that can't be the case. Who knows--maybe God has communicated with different people, races, nations, etc. in different manners throughout the course of mankind's history. This seems likely to me.

I suspect the false doctrines in various religions--if any--have been introduced by men over the course of history. Churches are like any man-made organization. The older they get, the more likely they are to eventually let corruption and false doctrines creep in. So I'll just continue to study and pray and seek answers.

 
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