Good job locking the only discussion on sexism

[Mavric]

I'm curious to see "the thread was a cluster" bit fleshed out more, if only to understand the interpretation of the thread.

Private complaints about the thread were alluded to before, but since that's been dismissed as the reasoning behind it, then what's the objective, publicly obvious picture of what went wrong? Is it that it went off topic, despite Enhance's point that he also felt the racism discussion was absolutely germane?

If it doesn't go beyond teach's trolling, then does one guy have the power to turn the entire thread into a cluster? To create the impression that there was "bad behavior" all around? Because his long, long history of gender issues-baiting aside, all there was was a spirited but ultimately respectful discussion between BB, Moiraine, Landlord, and myself, as I think all of us would individually attest to. I seem to recall the final posts of the night being BB & I thanking each other for the discussion.

Or, are there more posts or behaviors deserving of reprobation that haven't been mentioned yet specifically? If that thread was full of this, then given that the evidence is there, please do just highlight it. From the public comments here, it seems that these points aren't plain to quite a few people.

I have posted a lot of what I saw about it above.  But people continue to ignore the parts they don't want to listen to and nit-pick the parts they don't agree with.

You were a Mod for a long time, zoogs.  How many threads to do remember that generated 18 reports?  And - again - they were not all about/by one person  It was the 12th report from that thread before the person who is largely blamed for the thread being locked had one of their posts reported.

I was going to suggest the same thing knapp did but I figured everyone would be dismissive of that as well.  Feel free to start another thread.  It is extremely unlikely that it will be locked.  I'm sure that's not everyone's optimal solution.  People often don't agree with decisions made.  But it would answer what has been the major complaint about the thread being locked.

 

[Mierin]

I have posted a lot of what I saw about it above.  But people continue to ignore the parts they don't want to listen to and nit-pick the parts they don't agree with.

Actually, most of what you said was inaccurate, which is not surprising since you didn't read the topic. Some of what you said that was inaccurate I haven't bothered addressing. Most of what you said was either a generalization that didn't apply in any way to this topic, or an assumption about the topic that was incorrect.

How many of those reports happened before Enhance told people there hadn't been any reports on the topic? By his claim there were 0.

Can we at the very least hear from the mods that they will moderate a topic about sexism that gets "out of hand" by doing the following:

• If someone PM's complaining about the topic existing, say it's fine for us to have a topic about sexism (at least 1 of the PM's was that it shouldn't exist) and tell them to ignore it if they don't think it should exist.
  
• If someone PM's complaining about posts that are not against the rules, tell them they should just quit reading the topic or take a break from it.
  
• If someone reports a troll, suspend them like you did teach (I can almost guarantee this isn't going to happen, since teach is currently suspended and no one else caused a problem).
  

Basically I'm asking that the topic get moderated, because there was no call for this one to be locked. I would guess that <3 of the posts in the entire topic violated any kind of rule. The topic should not locked as a knee-jerk reaction, which is what happened with this one.

 

[JJ Husker]

Two things.

1- People need to be more receptive of differing points of view and less inclined to hit the report button. If another poster bothers you that much, put them on ignore and actually ignore them. I know it’s sometimes hard to do but if you don’t feed the troll they’ll starve or at least troll somebody else. Of course flagrant, obvious stuff can be reported but I get this feeling that there are some who must just runaround tattling all the time. I know, that’s what we’re told to do but that doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the best way to deal with it. I’ve read through that thread and I’ve seen worse stuff in the football forum and extremely worse stuff in the P&R forum.  I can’t imagine how that thread generated complaints about multiple different things from multiple posters. Put ‘em on blast in the shed or ignore them. The worthy ones will hang themselves.

2- For NM and Moiraine; You both make more astute and knowledgeable comments about football than a large number of the male posters here. I may not always agree with them but they are usually valid and well reasoned.  You shouldn’t feel inhibited or inferior in that regard. At. All.

IMO anyway...

 

[Mavric]

Actually, most of what you said was inaccurate, which is not surprising since you didn't read the topic. Some of what you said that was inaccurate I haven't bothered addressing. Most of what you said was either a generalization that didn't apply in any way to this topic, or an assumption about the topic that was incorrect.

How many of those reports happened before Enhance told people there hadn't been any reports on the topic? By his claim there were 0.

Please point out what has been inaccurate.  You are mistaking "things I disagree with" for "inaccurate".

As I mentioned before - which you have repeatedly ignored - "report things" that are against board rules is not the same as "just report something that you don't like or don't like the poster."

 

[zoogs]

I'm not here to criticize the decision; threads degenerate all the time and get locked. And yeah, seems like the only time that volume of reports comes in about a thread it's when it's a spammer.

I've also been around P&R a long time, as well as that thread. And it seemed fine. The conversation BB, Moiraine, Landlord and I were having was a fruitful one, and not by half the most acrimonious on this board. The only reason I've got questions now is that in the response here, there have been strong, repeated suggestions of bad behavior all around. 

If teach ruined the thread by s#!tposting, I can see that. And this view is consistent with teach getting the only warning out of this. I think the concern the rest of us have is that the rest of the discussion is being viewed as some demonstration of bad behavior. If those reports were viewed as legitimate, it seems only fair for some of the rest of us to get some public advisement here. Or if "thread participants reporting the s#!t out of each other" caused the thread lock out of caution, and not the thread itself, that makes a lot of sense -- as opposed to "legitimate reports revealed the unacceptable posting that was going on there by numerous parties on both sides."

Again, though, I'm happy to consider this "teach ruined a thread, got it locked, and hopefully it won't happen again". I think that's the fairest interpretation. I can certainly see how some of the things that have been said about general behavior in that thread would have people thinking, "My attempt to discuss sexism here is viewed as unacceptable." I'm confident that would be an inaccurate perception; hopefully this post outlines why someone would feel that way in the first place. That's all!

 

[Mierin]

Please point out what has been inaccurate.  You are mistaking "things I disagree with" for "inaccurate".

As I mentioned before - which you have repeatedly ignored - "report things" that are against board rules is not the same as "just report something that you don't like or don't like the poster."

I've already done that on several of the things you've said. It wasn't at all the type of topic you think it was - if all of these people confused as to why it was locked don't convince you, nothing will.

 I've already done it for what you're bringing up now. Enhance told us to start reporting people. 4 of my reports were about teach trolling, and I know others reported teach for trolling too. And he got suspended for trolling. So how is that what you're saying here? At least 1 mod agreed that he should be suspended for trolling! He got suspended for exactly what he was reported for.

How many reports were there before Enhance said no one had reported anyone?

 

[Mavric]

I'm not here to criticize the decision; threads degenerate all the time and get locked. And yeah, seems like the only time that volume of reports comes in about a thread it's when it's a spammer.

I've also been around P&R a long time, as well as that thread. And it seemed fine. The conversation BB, Moiraine, Landlord and I were having was a fruitful one, and not by half the most acrimonious on this board. The only reason I've got questions now is that in the response here, there have been strong, repeated suggestions of bad behavior all around. 

If teach ruined the thread by s#!tposting, I can see that. And this view is consistent with teach getting the only warning out of this. I think the concern the rest of us have is that the rest of the discussion is being viewed as some demonstration of bad behavior. If those reports were viewed as legitimate, it seems only fair for some of the rest of us to get some public advisement here.

Again, though, I'm happy to consider this "teach ruined a thread, got it locked, and hopefully it won't happen again". I think that's the fairest interpretation.

As I said, there were 12 reports about this thread before the first post of teach's got reported.  Everyone is wanting to blame him because he's the easy target.  But there was other stuff going on before that (apparently).

The conversation you were involved in may have been going fine.  But there were 533 posts in that thread.  I doubt you were involved in all of it.

 

[Mierin]

As I said, there were 12 reports about this thread before the first post of teach's got reported.  Everyone is wanting to blame him because he's the easy target.  But there was other stuff going on before that (apparently).

The conversation you were involved in may have been going fine.  But there were 533 posts in that thread.  I doubt you were involved in all of it.

zoogs basically was involved in all of it, as was I. I don't know that no posts were deleted, but I highly doubt more than a tiny handful were. Nothing was moved to the Woodshed, either. This topic wasn't moderated. It was locked as a knee-jerk reaction.

How many of the reports were made before Enhance told people no one had reported anyone? Why is this being ignored? How many of those reported posts were deleted or moved? If zero, none of them were against the rules, except the trolling posts by teach.

Why is it such a shock that a post about sexism is going to get a bad reaction from certain types? At least 1 person sent a PM saying a topic about sexism shouldn't exist. There are going to be a small minority of males who think it shouldn't be there at all and they're going to complain about it. This shouldn't be used in anyway as a reason to lock it. Extra consideration should be taken with this kind of thing. Not less consideration.

 

[Mavric]

I've already done that on several of the things you've said. It wasn't at all the type of topic you think it was - if all of these people confused as to why it was locked don't convince you, nothing will.

And nothing is going to convince you of different that what you believe.  So I guess we're at an impasse.

 

[Landlord]

Please point out what has been inaccurate.  You are mistaking "things I disagree with" for "inaccurate".

As I mentioned before - which you have repeatedly ignored - "report things" that are against board rules is not the same as "just report something that you don't like or don't like the poster."

The last several pages of that thread were me, Moiraine, zoogs, B.B., and teach. zoogs doesn't seem like the type to take things personally and get bent out of shape, moiraine told me she only reported teach several times, which i did as well as reporting B.B. once for one post that was directed towards me, but the reason for the report was that I thought it violated rules. That leaves a scenario where whatever was being reported was either several pages old by people who were no longer really contributing to the thread, and had weeded itself out in our (according to all of us involved except for teach, cordial and engaging discussion), or that what was being reported outside of teach's trolling was  bogus.

 

[Mierin]

And nothing is going to convince you of different that what you believe.

Did you read any posts in the topic? You say you didn't.

Did you move any of the posts you didn't read to the Woodshed? Did you delete any?

How many of the reports happened before Enhance told people no reports had happened?

What I believe is based on what happened in the topic which I watched like a hawk because it was extremely important to me. I read every single post in it, and looked at it more often than a normal person should. Pretty damn sure I would have noticed if people were being fuckholes to each other.

I've noticed we have something in common - we'll argue forever even if we're wrong. Well, I'm not wrong here. So there.

Also, you should add fuckhole to the swears list.

 

[zoogs]

The conversation you were involved in may have been going fine.  But there were 533 posts in that thread.  I doubt you were involved in all of it.

Right. It was a really long thread and I probably jumped in bits and pieces. I'm sure I actively avoided it at times. The thread had multiple turns and topics of conversation; topics that had come up earlier in the thread were dead by the time we started going over Cam's comments. I was there for the entire end of it, though, and most of the Cam stuff. And it seemed like that was what got it locked. Wrong perception?

The reason I focus on teach is because it's apparent his behavior being problematic was obvious. The "other stuff" is not as obvious. If none of the in-thread discussion at the end there outside of teach contributed to the other stuff, I think I see where the misunderstanding has come in. If it's "don't report spam someone you don't like", that's more clear, too -- and it makes sense why a thread at the center of that would get shut down.  I think either of these clarifications would allay the concerns expressed here.

I can't speak for Moiraine ofc, but it seems like one of the worries is that there are all these unnamed observers who didn't like seeing her advocate so strongly for women and complained about the thread until their voices were agreed with and the thread got nixxed. That's probably not what happened, it's just that "all these reports" and "everyone was behaving badly" makes it sound like that from the outside.

 

[Mierin]

The "18 reported posts" is irrelevant and misleading.

How about, how many reported posts were not by teach and not about teach, and you can hardly count the post by Enhance being reported. I reported it because I don't know why the topic was locked and I wanted clarification by the mods.

Max, there were 13 reported posts not by me about teach or Enhance's final post. But I think I may have reported teach 6 times which would reduce it to 11.

So we're talking 13 reported posts - I find it hard to believe none of those were about teach or by teach, and I know at least 1 person PM'd a mod to say the topic shouldn't exist.


None of these details are that relevant - the fact is I've seen no evidence that the topic was moderated.

 

[Mierin]

I can't speak for Moiraine ofc, but it seems like one of the worries is that there are all these unnamed observers who didn't like seeing her advocate so strongly for women and complained about the thread until their voices were agreed with and the thread got nixxed.

I made an over-generalization about that (because I've never been close to this pissed off at this place), which Mavric already replied to, but I know at least 1 man complained that the topic exists.

 

[zoogs]

^It sounds like 13 reports happened from the start of the thread to before our conversation that night. Which, fine, there was a loooooot of posts over a number of weeks covered there. I can see how all of them are part of the thread from a moderator's perspective -- and also how from ours, we're only wondering if that last page or so was the "problem". And if it wasn't, then, all good, right? 50+ page threads are silly, anyway, and sometimes deserve an artificial death. 

There's plenty of space on this board for feminism not to be constrained to a single thread. 

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( @Moiraine, above -- gotcha, I see.)