All things Poland

Do you follow Jack Posobiec? 


No, I don't know who that is (I mean, I do now because I googled but up until now)...he doesn't seem like someone who would interest me. 

I think the concern, as it were, is who organized this and what they billed themselves as. And the worry that those who aren't themselves fascists don't mind them, and are happy to find common cause with them...and why.




I would imagine the actual fascists that showed up to this cloaked themselves in a respectable Catholic and reasonably patriotic image. To the average conservative Pole those are attractive ideas and they might show up to something they put on.

Why is Patriotism and ultra-Nationalism in vogue in Poland? Because they haven't really had their own country in almost 200 years. Imperial powers, Fascists and Communists have all tried to suppress or eliminate the Polish identity and people so, understandably, they're pretty proud and happy that they have a country again. The Fascists tried to eliminate them as a people and the Communists tried to destroy their religion so naturally they gravitate to those things.

A better question is why there are fascists in Poland at all? Or Ukraine, or the Baltic states?....how large are they, what are their goals and motivation, etc?

I would say that actual Nazi-style fascist groups in those countries are small. They're mostly young, un-and-underemployed/educated men in underdeveloped regions who are frustrated. There is prosperity and growth in those countries, and much like Brexit and Trump voters, they feel left behind because they aren't getting a part of it. When you already don't have a chair at the table the idea of welcoming more people in to the dining room isn't exactly appealing thus the anti-migrant position. They see the EU as trying to force migration and other liberal policies on their governments and also see the Russian government trying to extend influence in their former satellites. 

So these are patriotic, religious, conservative, euro-skeptical and anti-Russian young men who want change so they can get at the table, they also don't want migrants who in this particular case are a different ethnicity and religion than them. It's quite easy to see how they slide in to Nazi or Fascist groups because the ideology checks most of the boxes, remove the anti-slav bits from Nazi thought and it becomes an almost perfect act of rebellion for them, a giant middle finger to the the ideas and people they don't like. 

These people, the actual fascists, are not in power and don't wield any real influence. Just like anarchists with liberal movements they hijack conservative rallies or marches and bait-and-switch people that lean their direction. 

Their number is over exaggerated by media on either side of them for their own purposes.

Liberals in the EU and America love to play them up and brand all conservatives in Central/Eastern Europe as Nazis for a variety of reasons, partly because I don't think they are knowledgeable enough to tell the difference. "We want God" is not a Nazi or Fascist chant and the Home Army Anchor symbol and armband is not a Nazi device, but to a liberal who wants to see Nazis everywhere they fit the bill. They also want to feel like crusaders against some Nazi monstrosity because it makes them feel better and it's to easier win moderate voters if you paint all conservatives as Nazis.

The Russians also have an interest in labeling Ukrainian and Polish nationalists/conservatives as Nazis because it makes the war in Donbas and some of their subversive acts in Eastern Europe more palatable at home and abroad. They're doing the exact same thing in Syria. Every airstrike they conduct is against ISIS and Al Qaeda no matter who they actually hit because they can sell that better.

The far-right in Europe isn't a phenomenon that seems dismissable at this point. Of course, perhaps one might argue that they've got the right idea. I emphatically reject the idea that they aren't in power yet, and therefore shrug. We often think of things as cartoonishly unrealistic. Reality is sobering, and it's important to recognize that. You might say the craziest of the crazies in the US are extremely rare and fringe, also. But it is always worth reaffirming a condemnation of what they stand for.


Nazis and Fascists are not in power anywhere or even close to it. Those are the people I consider to be far-right. I do not consider euro-skeptics, nationalists, or anti-immigration parties to be far-right. Those are reasonable political positions that reasonable people can hold, definitely right-wing but "far-right" carries a fascist connotation because it so often used to describe those groups. I think we probably differ on our definition of far-right.

I absolutely condemn Nazis and Fascists and do not support them but I do support Poles and other eastern Europeans who want to build up their countries and their people how they see fit. If they don't want migrants or to subordinate themselves to Brussels that's their decision and we should respect it. We owe them that much after leaving World War Two only half fought. 

Waving a flag, chanting a nationalist or religious slogan, and not wanting migrants does not make a person a fascist. 

I've yet to see a photo or video of Nazi or fascist acts/symbolism from today's events in Poland. I'm sure they exist because we know that those people were out there but if there were really 60,000 of them or even 1000 of them we'd see a lot more of them.

 
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I think "the EU is bad, and I sympathize with anti-Muslim influx" makes a lot of sense here for understanding your interest and perspective in this topic.

"We Want God", by the way, is a Trump quote.

 
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You're right. Trump said it in his speech in Poland this year, but it seems he was the one making the reference, not the other way around.

 
What is a "Trumpism?" 

Trump doesn't stand for anything. He latches on to whatever will roil the masses at the moment

“They must have known during that exact moment during Pope John Paul II’s sermon when a million Polish men, women and children suddenly raised their voices in a single prayer. A million Polish people did not ask for wealth. They did not ask for privilege. Instead, one million Poles sang three simple words: ‘We want God’,” Trump said to applause.

He continued, “As I stand here today before this incredible crowd, this faithful nation, we can still hear those voices that echo through history. Their message is as true today as ever. The people of Poland, the people of America, and the people of Europe still cry out ‘We want God’.”

 
I understand it's easier to keep this thread an attack on the caricature of Liberals that conservative media portrays them to be, but Trump is the opposite side of that coin and you cannot talk about one without understanding the tactics of the other. 

 
I think I take issue with the supporting links for your argument being pulled from agenda-driven alt-right fake news peddlers. I hope the source of your contextual knowledge of Poland doesn't derive from these sources.

..."an attack on the caricature of Liberals that conservative media portrays them to be"...

Yes. This is well put. It's what I'm getting out of this, too. Though I think it does conservatives a disservice. I mean, the WSJ is conservative media. There's a media caricature question but the source seems something different.

 
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I think I take issue with the supporting links for your argument being pulled from agenda-driven alt-right fake news peddlers. I hope the source of your contextual knowledge of Poland doesn't derive from these sources.


Wasn't sure who you were talking about until I checked which tweets I linked and saw I'd used one from that Jack guy...which would explain why you brought him up. 

I wanted to find four tweets that disagreed on the issue or saw the march differently to provide some color to the thread. I searched Poland on twitter and found the first four from largish people. Like I said, I didn't know who that guy was until an hour ago and none of my opinions come from him. I also don't particularly care for Sally Kohn or Shaun King but I wanted to throw out multiple perspectives. Lazy work I know but no, nothing comes from him.

I've said before that I don't doubt there were Fascists and Nazis at the march today, or that they organized some of the marches that attracted large amounts of people. But I think it's alarmist to label the tens of thousands that showed up as members or fellow travelers one step away from supporting genocide or call the whole celebration a fascist event like Kohn is. They're building up a Nazi boogeyman for their own political reasons. 

 
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Yeah, that makes sense. And I didn't think that's where you got your perspectives. Just bringing up the discrepancy between prop outlets feeding intentional disinformation and CNN/Intercept writers who latched on to a possibly inaccurate figure that bears correcting.

 
I understand it's easier to keep this thread an attack on the caricature of Liberals that conservative media portrays them to be, but Trump is the opposite side of that coin and you cannot talk about one without understanding the tactics of the other. 


It's not a caricature, look at what Sally Kohn said, It's pretty spot on.... but that actually has nothing to do with why I don't want to talk about Trump. Here are the reasons:

1. I'm afraid the thread will get derailed

2. I don't feel he's super relevant to these events...but I welcome your perspective on that (not being facetious) 

3. I'm a Federal Employee so I generally abstain from talking about the President. I've tried my best with this one as I did with his predecessor.

4. Trump fatigue 

 
I have no idea who Sally Kohn is. Where did you hear about her?

EDIT - OK, I googled her.  Do you think she is more or less indicative of Liberals than Roy Moore is of Conservatives?

 
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I have no idea who Sally Kohn is. Where did you hear about her?


She's a liberal media personality and one of the tweets posted above. She said "Tens of thousands of neo Nazis showed up to march in Poland today and chant for an “all white Europe.”" which is casting a pretty wide net...and pretty much what I said  liberals were doing with this issue. I speculated on why they're doing it but I'm not an authority and I'm not a mod. Post about Trump if you want, there's nothing I can do about it.

 
EDIT - OK, I googled her.  Do you think she is more or less indicative of Liberals than Roy Moore is of Conservatives?


I wouldn't know as I'm not a liberal and people like Roy Moore are why I no longer feel comfortable identifying as a conservative. If you can find people you feel are more representative of the wider liberal opinion on all of this I would welcome it but it would not dismiss the Kohns and Kings.

 
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