Trump: More Popular than Ever

Moiraine said:
He earned the title of racist because he's racist. He earned dislike in part because he's racist. He's also sexist and moronic, to name a couple other things.

To the bolded, are there or aren't there different ways to prioritize and enforce laws? Sessions stated there would be a zero-tolerance policy, and then things changed. Trump and his administration can just as easily change it back to the way it was before.
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The immigration patterns have changed from a mostly single men or married men traveling alone crossing the border to now men (sometimes with women) and children appearing at the borders without proof that the children are theirs.  Obama's agency was occasionally turning kids over to host sponsors who were not vetted and the kids ended up working on a chicken farm 12-14 hours a day and yet others were abused in worse ways.  Do you remember that little saga or is it wiped from your memory?

 
TonyStalloni said:
You've cried wolf too many times Knap.  You've lost all objectivity with your hatred for DT.  Go find the new cause to be pissed about this week and feel like you are changing the world.
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This ^^^ is pure garbage.  Trump is an utterly despicable, vile, corrupt, shell of a human being.  Let's start with just two of his recent actions: 1) Meeting with Kim Jong Un and 2) His administration's policy of separating illegal immigrants from their children.

Trump is alienating our allies: Canada, France, Germany, and other NATO countries, and cozying up to despotic dictators like Putin and Un.  You know that no matter what Un "agrees" to he'll never follow through.  Once again, moron Trump got played for a fool on the world stage. 

Second, tearing kids away from their parents is one of the most awful policies I have EVER seen ANY administration enact.  The sheer inherent racism behind this is off the charts.

Trump and most of his sheep followers are inherently racist, xenophobic, homophobic, and they hate anyone not "christian."  Their daily words and actions demonstrate this clearly. 

The propaganda MAGA is nothing more than bull**** white racism gone mainstream.

Hate Crimes Increase Since 2016

More

But Wait, There's More!!!

I mean, I could SERIOUSLY go on and on with examples.  When are you going to open your eyes?

 
TonyStalloni said:
The immigration patterns have changed from a mostly single men or married men traveling alone crossing the border to now men (sometimes with women) and children appearing at the borders without proof that the children are theirs.  Obama's agency was occasionally turning kids over to host sponsors who were not vetted and the kids ended up working on a chicken farm 12-14 hours a day and yet others were abused in worse ways.  Do you remember that little saga or is it wiped from your memory?
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Whataboutism is a propaganda technique used by the Soviet Union to deflect blame for human rights abuses and garner sympathy by complaining about something the United States did that they claimed was just as bad. The problem was the Soviets never accepted responsibility for their own actions. 
 

Unfortunately, it's exactly what you're doing by blame shifting onto Obama or Bush or politicians or whomever else. This decision to separate kids from their parents as a deterrent hangs on one person & one person only: Trump. 

He's doing it not because he's "enforcing the laws" or Congress has failed at immigration reform, he's doing it because he's the only one borderline sociopathic enough to use children and families as bargaining chips. Just like he did with the DACA kids. He & his cronies aren't doing it because muh law & order, they're doing it because they've determined it's good politics to try to hold them hostage for concessions. You see, these people (kids) aren't really Americans, so you see they aren't really citizens, so you see they don't really have rights, so you see they aren't really people, so you see it doesn't really matter how we treat them. Because in the Republican Utopia it's actually considered good politics to get heavy-handed with funny-talking brown people.

Here's the deal. I can list a long and rather blatant history of racist actions by Trump, both the person & the president. I'm not going to, because i have a feeling you'd minimize all of it or claim all politicians are guilty of it in one way or another or make other mealy-mouthed excuses.

If you want to know why Donald Trump is racist, do one iota of research about the man before you pop off about the rest of us being uninformed. I believe the appropriate phrase is something to do with a horse & some water.

 
TonyStalloni said:
If you are talking about the new weekly distraction of the border separation, were you equally appalled when the law was created under Billy Clinton, or when Bush did the same and Obama followed suit.  Each one declaring that illegal border entries must stop and we need to get a handle on this problem. Obama had a democrat majority in both houses and did squat.
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I've seen a lot of the same talking points pop up today, so I've been doing some fact checking. This was the most comprehensive and includes links:

 Michelle Martin, PhD Cal State Fullerton:

There is so much misinformation out there about the Trump administration's new "zero tolerance" policy that requires criminal prosecution, which then warrants the separating of parents and children at the border. Before responding to a post defending this policy, please do your research...As a professor at a local Cal State, I research and write about these issues, so here, I'll make it easier for you:

Myth: This is not a new policy and was practiced under Obama and Clinton - FALSE. The policy to separate parents and children is new and was instituted on 4/6/2018. It was the brainchild of John Kelly and Stephen Miller to serve as a deterrent for undocumented immigration, approved by Trump, and adopted by Sessions. Prior administrations detained migrant families, but didn’t have a practice of forcibly separating parents from their children unless the adults were deemed unfit. https://www.justice.gov/…/press-rele…/file/1049751/download…

Myth: This is the only way to deter undocumented immigration - FALSE. Annual trends show that arrests for undocumented entry are at a 46 year low, and undocumented crossings dropped in 2007, with a net loss (more people leaving than arriving). Deportations have increased steadily though (spiking in 1996 and more recently), because several laws that were passed since 1996 have made it legally more difficult to gain legal status for people already here, and thus increased their deportations (I address this later under the myth that it's the Democrats' fault). What we mostly have now are people crossing the border illegally because they've already been hired by a US company, or because they are seeking political asylum. Economic migrants come to this country because our country has kept the demand going. But again, many of these people impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy appear to be political asylum-seekers. https://www.npr.org/…/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-…

Myth: Most of the people coming across the border are just trying to take advantage of our country by taking our jobs - FALSE. Most of the parents who have been impacted by Trump's "zero tolerance" policy have presented themselves as political asylum-seekers at a U.S. port-of-entry, from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. Rather than processing their claims, they have been taken into custody on the spot and had their children ripped from their arms. The ACLU alleges that this practice violates the Asylum Act, and the UN asserts that it violates the UN Treaty on the State of Refugees, one of the few treaties the US has ratified. This is an illegal act on the part of the United States government, not to mention morally and ethically reprehensible. https://www.nytimes.com/…/meatpackers-profits-hinge-on-pool…

Myth: We're a country that respects the Rule of Law, and if people break the law, this is what they get - FALSE. We are a country that has an above-ground system of immigration and an underground system. Our government (under both parties) has always been aware that US companies recruit workers in the poorest parts of Mexico for cheap labor, and ICE (and its predecessor INS) has looked the other way because this underground economy benefits our country to the tune of billions of dollars annually. Thus, even though the majority of people crossing the border now are asylum-seekers, those who are economic migrants (migrant workers) likely have been recruited here to do jobs Americans will not do. https://www.upi.com/…/Donald-Trumps-wall-ign…/2621477498203/

Myth: The children have to be separated from their parents because there parents must be arrested and it would be cruel to put children in jail with their parents - FALSE. First, in the case of economic migrants crossing the border illegally, criminal prosecution has not been the legal norm, and families have been kept together at all cost. Also, crossing the border without documentation is a typically a misdemeanor not requiring arrest, but rather a civil proceeding. Additionally, parents who have been detained have historically been detained with their children in ICE "family residential centers," again, for civil processing. The Trump administration's shift in policy is for political purposes only, not legal ones. See p. 18: https://www.aclu.org/…/ms-l-v-ice-plaintiffs-opposition-def…

Myth: We have rampant fraud in our asylum process the proof of which is the significant increase we have in the number of people applying for asylum. FALSE. The increase in asylum seekers is a direct result of the increase in civil conflict and violence across the globe. While some people may believe that we shouldn't allow any refugees into our country because "it's not our problem," neither our current asylum law, nor our ideological foundation as a country support such an isolationist approach. There is very little evidence to support Sessions' claim that abuse of our asylum-seeking policies is rampant. Also, what Sessions failed to mention is that the majority of asylum seekers are from China, not South of the border. Here is a very fair and balanced assessment of his statements: http://www.politifact.com/…/jeff-sessions-claim-about-asyl…/

Myth: The Democrats caused this, "it's their law." FALSE. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats caused this, the Trump administration did (although the Republicans could fix this today, and have refused). I believe what this myth refers to is the passage of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which were both passed under Clinton in 1996. These laws essentially made unauthorized entry into the US a crime (typically a misdemeanor for first-time offenders), but under both Republicans and Democrats, these cases were handled through civil deportation proceedings, not a criminal proceeding, which did not require separation. And again, even in cases where detainment was required, families were always kept together in family residential centers, unless the parents were deemed unfit (as mentioned above). Thus, Trump's assertion that he hates this policy but has no choice but to separate the parents from their children, because the Democrats "gave us this law" is false and nothing more than propaganda designed to compel negotiation on bad policy. https://www.independent.co.uk/…/trump-democrats-us-border-m…

Myth: The parents and children will be reunited shortly, once the parents' court cases are finalized. FALSE. Criminal court is a vastly different beast than civil court proceedings. Also, the children are being processed as unaccompanied minors ("unaccompanied alien children"), which typically means they are sent into the custody of the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), which is part of the Department of Health and Human Services (DHS). Under normal circumstances when a child enters the country without his or her parent, ORR attempts to locate a family member within a few weeks, and the child is then released to a family member, or if a family member cannot be located, the child is placed in a residential center (anywhere in the country), or in some cases, foster care. Prior to Trump's new policy, ORR was operating at 95% capacity, and they simply cannot effectively manage the influx of 2000+ children, some as young as 4 months. Also, keep in mind, these are not unaccompanied minor children, they have parents. There is great legal ambiguity on how and even whether the parents will get their children back because we are in uncharted territory right now. According to the ACLU lawsuit (see below), there is currently no easy vehicle for reuniting parents with their children. Additionally, according to a May 2018 report, numerous cases of verbal, physical and sexual abuse were found to have occurred in these residential centers. https://www.aclu.org/…/aclu-obtains-documents-showing-wides…

Myth: This policy is legal. LIKELY FALSE. The ACLU filed a lawsuit against the Trump administration on 5/6/18, and a recent court ruling denied the government's motion to dismiss the suit. The judge deciding the case stated that the Trump Administration policy is "brutal, offensive, and fails to comport with traditional notions of fair play and decency." The case is moving forward because it was deemed to have legal merit.https://www.bloomberg.com/…/aclu-suit-over-child-separation…

 
I initially put this into the Republican Utopia thread, but feel it works better in this thread...

Oh and memo to any/all "pro-family" Republicans reading this...

You cannot call yourself "pro-family" and support the Trump administration's policy of taking children away from their parents.  The fact that they are illegal immigrants does NOT make it okay.

And if you are one of the 55% of Republicans who do support this policy, then you are a heartless monster and you should take a long, reflective look into the mirror, search for your soul, and ask the god you pretend to believe in for forgiveness.

 
Ric Flair said:
Saying “racist” lots of times doesn’t make something or someone racist. What has Trump done that you see as racist? 
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He violated the Fair Housing Act not renting apartments to black people, settled with The Department of Justice, and then violated the agreement of that settlement by once again refusing to rent to black tenants. That's racist. It couldn't possibly fit the definition of racism any more clearly.

Now,

When was America not great?

What caused America to stop being great again?

What had to happen to make America great again?

At what point did America again become great?

What must we do to prevent America from falling from greatness in the future?

 
TonyStalloni said:
Where did I say say someone can't say anything?  Disagree all you want but be civil.  Calling the president a "racist POS" is as bad as calling Obama the names you probably objected too 8 years ago.  
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Did you actually imply that it’s disrespecful to call people names???  And it is disrespectful to Trump????  The man who got elected by making up 3 rd grade names for everyone?  

 
Landlord said:
He violated the Fair Housing Act not renting apartments to black people, settled with The Department of Justice, and then violated the agreement of that settlement by once again refusing to rent to black tenants. That's racist. It couldn't possibly fit the definition of racism any more clearly.

Now,

When was America not great?

What caused America to stop being great again?

What had to happen to make America great again?

At what point did America again become great?

What must we do to prevent America from falling from greatness in the future?
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https://www.heritage.org/political-process/report/whats-great-about-america

A rather long article but a good read.  The life of a country is in many ways similar to the life of an individual.  We start out young and inexperienced.  We stumble through and hopefully learn from our mistakes.  As a country we started as a group of immigrants with little more than a dream and a work ethic.  Through toil. sweat and lost lives, every generation laid the foundation for progress and hope for a better life.  This was the pattern until we hit the Great Depression and WW2.  The "Greatest Generation" encompassed the ideals of self sacrifice and hard work.....but couldn't raise up the next generation to grasp the same mindset.  The idea that "I'm going to give my kids everything I didn't have growing up"  produced a rebellious generation that collectively gave the middle finger to their parents values.  We as a nation have been see sawing back and forth since then.  We still struggle to get it right and what it takes to make our nation great. That said we are still a nation where people around the world want to be a part of and not a nation where people flee.  

Too many on the right see capitalism as the answer to everything while too many on the left see it as the great stain on our country's history when the answer is somewhere in the middle.  We need a strong economy for hard working Americans to have hope for something better.  At the same time we as citizens have to do our part to take time to raise well adjusted kids who feel love, help and assist those in our community who struggle with handicaps and lastly to elect congressmen and senators that understand the fine line of free reign capitalism and compassion.

 
TonyStalloni said:
https://www.heritage.org/political-process/report/whats-great-about-america

A rather long article but a good read.  The life of a country is in many ways similar to the life of an individual.  We start out young and inexperienced.  We stumble through and hopefully learn from our mistakes.  As a country we started as a group of immigrants with little more than a dream and a work ethic.  Through toil. sweat and lost lives, every generation laid the foundation for progress and hope for a better life.  This was the pattern until we hit the Great Depression and WW2.  The "Greatest Generation" encompassed the ideals of self sacrifice and hard work.....but couldn't raise up the next generation to grasp the same mindset.  The idea that "I'm going to give my kids everything I didn't have growing up"  produced a rebellious generation that collectively gave the middle finger to their parents values.  We as a nation have been see sawing back and forth since then.  We still struggle to get it right and what it takes to make our nation great. That said we are still a nation where people around the world want to be a part of and not a nation where people flee.  

Too many on the right see capitalism as the answer to everything while too many on the left see it as the great stain on our country's history when the answer is somewhere in the middle.  We need a strong economy for hard working Americans to have hope for something better.  At the same time we as citizens have to do our part to take time to raise well adjusted kids who feel love, help and assist those in our community who struggle with handicaps and lastly to elect congressmen and senators that understand the fine line of free reign capitalism and compassion.
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Odd that to make america great again we might need to allow immigrants to dream of progress and hope for better lives in this country?

Edit:  I'm reading thru the article now and I have to admit it is a little silly.  There are quite a few holes in Dinesh's line of thinking.  We should be proud of the Country because our poor people are in better shape than poor people in 3rd world counties?  And he says things like this....

But at the same time, I am struck by the ease with which Martin Luther King Jr. and the civil rights movement won its victories, and by the magnitude of white goodwill in this country. 
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:bang  MLK GOT KILLED, how is that an easy victory?

Alexis de Tocqueville noticed this egalitarianism a century and a half ago, but it is, if anything, more prevalent today.
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Tocqueville was writing about America when slavery was LEGAL, I hope egalitarianism is more prevalent today!

 
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TonyStalloni said:
https://www.heritage.org/political-process/report/whats-great-about-america

A rather long article but a good read.  The life of a country is in many ways similar to the life of an individual.  We start out young and inexperienced.  We stumble through and hopefully learn from our mistakes.  As a country we started as a group of immigrants with little more than a dream and a work ethic.  Through toil. sweat and lost lives, every generation laid the foundation for progress and hope for a better life.  This was the pattern until we hit the Great Depression and WW2.  The "Greatest Generation" encompassed the ideals of self sacrifice and hard work.....but couldn't raise up the next generation to grasp the same mindset.  The idea that "I'm going to give my kids everything I didn't have growing up"  produced a rebellious generation that collectively gave the middle finger to their parents values.  We as a nation have been see sawing back and forth since then.  We still struggle to get it right and what it takes to make our nation great. That said we are still a nation where people around the world want to be a part of and not a nation where people flee.  

Too many on the right see capitalism as the answer to everything while too many on the left see it as the great stain on our country's history when the answer is somewhere in the middle.  We need a strong economy for hard working Americans to have hope for something better.  At the same time we as citizens have to do our part to take time to raise well adjusted kids who feel love, help and assist those in our community who struggle with handicaps and lastly to elect congressmen and senators that understand the fine line of free reign capitalism and compassion.
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And here is a good rebuttal to his claims that, "Most societies offer limited opportunities for and little chance of true social mobility. Even in Europe, social mobility is relatively restricted."

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf

The findings from cross-country research challenge the traditional view of the United States as a land with more mobility and opportunity than other countries.

While cross-country comparisons of relative mobility rely on data and methodologies that are far from perfect, a growing number of economic studies have found that the United States stands out as having less, not more, intergenerational mobility than do Canada and several European countries. American children are more likely than other children to end up in the same place on the income distribution as their parents. Moreover, there is emerging evidence that mobility is particularly low for Americans born into families at the bottom of the earnings or income distribution.
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