Confederate flags

Ulty said:
Great points. But even if someone legitimately feels that this is part of their heritage (I would like to hear some southern folks rationally flesh out that idea in detail as well), or if someone is waving the flag just for the anti-authority value, does that not also at least imply a large level of ignorance regarding how others would perceive their use of the flag, especially what it means in today's volatile climate? I mean, I get it if someone has deep affection for their home state, but no matter how much I loved my home, I would not want to fly a controversial symbol that would brand me as a racist, whether it was correct or not.

I don't want to trigger Godwin's law here, but Germany has a rich but checkered history. Even if I was a proud German, I would not be flying the swastika all over the place, regardless of my heritage.

Your last point, about it being conscious versus unconscious, is intriguing. Am I wrong in thinking that the unconscious side of it is simply willful ignorance, since the confederate flag is such a widely known symbol of controversy?
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I think a lot of people vaguely care about things but just blithely go through life without giving many things much thought. I think we all do this from time to time - whether that's ignorance of the travails of the opposite gender, the nuances of life as someone of a different race, religion, age, societal background, etc. I think a lot of people don't intend to discriminate, but they're so used to viewing the world through their filters and they give zero thought to the fact that other people have different life experiences that they unintentionally impact others.

I think we all should know more about how our actions impact others, intentionally or unintentionally. But I think we all fail in that necessary empathy. Some more than others. Some more willfully than others.

 
knapplc said:
I think a lot of people vaguely care about things but just blithely go through life without giving many things much thought. I think we all do this from time to time - whether that's ignorance of the travails of the opposite gender, the nuances of life as someone of a different race, religion, age, societal background, etc. I think a lot of people don't intend to discriminate, but they're so used to viewing the world through their filters and they give zero thought to the fact that other people have different life experiences that they unintentionally impact others.

I think we all should know more about how our actions impact others, intentionally or unintentionally. But I think we all fail in that necessary empathy. Some more than others. Some more willfully than others.
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Beautifully said: I might steal these lines to use in my own daily conversations.

 
knapplc said:
I think a lot of people vaguely care about things but just blithely go through life without giving many things much thought. I think we all do this from time to time - whether that's ignorance of the travails of the opposite gender, the nuances of life as someone of a different race, religion, age, societal background, etc. I think a lot of people don't intend to discriminate, but they're so used to viewing the world through their filters and they give zero thought to the fact that other people have different life experiences that they unintentionally impact others.

I think we all should know more about how our actions impact others, intentionally or unintentionally. But I think we all fail in that necessary empathy. Some more than others. Some more willfully than others.
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I agree with this.  I think many people do things because of how it makes them feel, without regard for how it affects others or how it's viewed by others.

Example:

I give a talk to the local seniors every year about what employers are looking for.  One of the topics that I'm always asked is my views on tattoos and body piercings.  My answer always is, it doesn't matter my views of it.  I might think you coming in all tatted up with spikes coming out of your ears, nose and tongue is the coolest thing in the world.  But, if someone walking in off the street is turned off by it and has a negative view of my company because of it, you aren't going to get a job working here and dealing with the public.  What you do matters.  There are always a few in the crowd that look at me like I just kicked their dog.

People NEED to understand that our actions and the view the outside world sees of us....matters.

And, if you do something with one though in mind but everyone else views it totally different.....well.....the problem is usually how YOU view it.

 
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Ulty said:
That is very interesting, and I am sure there is quite the fascinating story behind that. In this case, I would not jump to the conclusion that they are racist, but this is also a rather unique story. It would be a more confusing matter if they are driving around waving the flag off the back of their truck though. You should try to get the background story to this one.
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I'm pretty sure they don't drive around Norfolk Virginia waving this flag!.From what I've gathered their relative in the picture was a freed slave who fought  for the south by choice.the pictures showed two black soldiers and a white soldier, all armed,  the flag was from his unit,.when I asked the question earlier  if they are racist,to my knowledge just by hanging out with them is hell no,this is their heritage and nothing more ,a rather unique one at that.

 
I wonder how many people that fly the "confederate flag" today even know thats not the confederate flag? The flag those morons fly is a modern replica of the battle flag of northern Virginia.

 
I just started reading a book about the GOP and how it's changed from a moderate party of compromise to one obstinately insisting on increasingly pure conservative while rejecting any bipartisanship. It's a good read so far. Why the Right Went Wrong by E.J. Dionne, Jr., if anyone is interested. He's a good mind.

Anywho, the big changes within conservatism came with Goldwater in 1964. His uncompromising conservatism was largely rooted in rejecting the Civil Rights Act. This, of course, sent African-Americans fleeing the party they had previously delivered a sizable chunk of votes to, along with socially moderate suburbanite white folk. Naturally, southern whites who were either racist or just anti-CRA filled in the void left behind and that's how we've gotten to where we are today. Lincoln may have freed the slaves, but now his party is the one primarily irate about civil rights for minorities.

I think part of it is the composition of the American right itself, and part of it is that their new leader has gotten most of them to double down and relish the opportunity to be controversial, inflammatory and combative by nature.

 
I, for one, actually appreciate people who fly the confederate flag--it lets me know to stay as far away from them as I possibly can.  Yeah, I think they're morons but at least they are up-front and honest about their bigotry and racism.  

(And while it might be theoretically possible to fly the "stars and bars" and NOT be a racist moron...that person would be the extremely rare outlier and in no way indicative or representative of the whole.)

 
I actually read a book about something similar to this and it was a fantastic read! It got me to laugh a lot because it has some great humor in it. The book is called Confederates in the Attic and it is a great read for those who are die had history buffs and for the average joe who isn't one. He interviews a lot of people in the south and it gives the reader more perspective on why they want to keep their flag/heritage. 

Anyway, what I learned from the book was that some had ties to their heritage or had someone die fighting for the south. I don't mind people keeping the flag for heritage but flying it is just not right in my mind. But to counter that it is their freedom to fly whatever flag they want. Regardless, I do not accept anything the confederate flag stands for and it baffles me that there are a lot of people still supporting it. 

 
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Had no problem with that flag in the past and just loved the crap out the General Lee car. However to some that flag is no different then a Nazi flag, a symbol of oppression and brutality perpetrated against them. It also is actually the flag of the traitors of the USA and the enemy who fought us. So yea, I can give it a pass for the duke boys as it was innocent fun, but I get why others dont want anything to do with it,.

 
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Michiganball said:
Had no problem with that flag in the past and just loved the crap out the General Lee car. However to some that flag is no different then a Nazi flag, a symbol of oppression and brutality perpetrated against them. It also is actually the flag of the traitors of the USA and the enemy who fought us. So yea, I can give it a pass for the duke boys as it was innocent fun, but I get why others dont want anything to do with it,.
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no problems with the confederate flag until they wanted to unite it with the nazi flag.  if they want to be united with nazis they can have the same disrespect the nazis deserve.

 
I think the history of the Confederacy is more complicated than the black/white, good/evil way people portray it. So the legacy of the symbols, flags, statutes, etc. is complicated as well.

For some people, the flag is a symbol of regional pride, family heirloom, etc. For others, it’s a symbol of hatred, racism, etc. If the Klan hadn’t adopted it as a symbol, I think it would be far more benign today.

 
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I just see no reason to fly the flag of a loser, a traitor to the United States.  You don't see people flying the flag of the Republic of Texas.  I believe it all belongs in a museum to study history on what not to do.  I wonder how much longer the state of Mississippi will fly their current state flag?  It's always interesting to me that they choose to fly the battle flag and not the CSA flag, the actual "stars and bars". 

 
DrinkinwitTerrellFarley said:
I just see no reason to fly the flag of a loser, a traitor to the United States.  You don't see people flying the flag of the Republic of Texas.  I believe it all belongs in a museum to study history on what not to do.  I wonder how much longer the state of Mississippi will fly their current state flag?  It's always interesting to me that they choose to fly the battle flag and not the CSA flag, the actual "stars and bars". 
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I think the official flag of The Republic of Texas was adapted into the Lone Star Flag, which you see flown all of the time.

 
DrinkinwitTerrellFarley said:
I just see no reason to fly the flag of a loser, a traitor to the United States.  You don't see people flying the flag of the Republic of Texas.  I believe it all belongs in a museum to study history on what not to do.  I wonder how much longer the state of Mississippi will fly their current state flag?  It's always interesting to me that they choose to fly the battle flag and not the CSA flag, the actual "stars and bars". 
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Most of the of the intellectuals who fly the "confederate flag" have no idea its the battle flag of northern Virginia

 
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