Will our democracy survive Trump?

[HuskerNation1]

Trump is on track to leave the country more polarized along party lines, racial lines, economic lines, and nationalistic lines than when he took over. But I imagine you'll be a hypocrite and blame the results of Trump's Presidency on Obama as well, or would you hold him to the same standard? 

The thing is, Trump helped perpetuate racial division during Obama's Presidency by being all gungho about the bulls#!t birther thing. Obama did not act in a divisive way - you can argue that he responded to events divisively, but he didn't cause them. Corrupt/racist police practices that Obama responded to are not the fault of Obama. White supremacists and white nationalists infiltrating corners of the Republican party and sowing seeds of racial discontent that Obama responded to are not the fault of Obama. 

Of course, unacknowledge in all of that is the fact that Obama was, in fact, a black man. If you had to take a guess, do you imagine that there are more white people who hate black people in America, or more black people who hate white people? More white people represented in government, or more black people? More history of white dominance and power in America, or more for black people? Do more white people have to change their behavior/customs to fit into black culture on a daily basis, or do more black people have to do that to fit into white culture? Which direction do you think the animosity and uncomfortableness of a new territory involving a black political leader do you think it all came from?

This is a post full of nonsense. More blacks support the GOP now than at any point in my lifetime. Black, Hispanic and Asian unemployment and wages are better now than ever.  Regarding party lines or nationalistic lines (whatever the hell that means) the country has been bitterly divided along party lines since the 1990s outside of the time period around 9/11. I think social media has hardened peoples positions as aligning with one party or another.  I actually think Trump is a realignment figure and has transformed the makeup of the parties. Trump won hundreds of counties that Obama carried twice.  As for claiming Obama did not promote division, that is utter nonsense and we have already hashed through this before. He took the wrong side on many issues such as blaming the police or NRA before facts were even available. I still recall and oregon shooting where he came out and delivered an angry speech blaming Republicans for supporting the 2nd amendment as the reason for the shooting...before family members even knew if loved ones were victims, and before knowing if the gun was purchased legally. Again its nonsense to claim he was not responsible for the growing division in the country, or to blame it on the fact that he was black and that caused the division.

 

[HuskerNation1]

What about, maybe instead, like just 1% of our defense budget?

Hey if we could end this Obamacare/socialized medicine nonsense and start to scale back Social Security promises for future generations I would be fully on board with cutting the defense budget. 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

This is a post full of nonsense. More blacks support the GOP now than at any point in my lifetime. Black, Hispanic and Asian unemployment and wages are better now than ever.  Regarding party lines or nationalistic lines (whatever the hell that means) the country has been bitterly divided along party lines since the 1990s outside of the time period around 9/11. I think social media has hardened peoples positions as aligning with one party or another.  I actually think Trump is a realignment figure and has transformed the makeup of the parties. Trump won hundreds of counties that Obama carried twice.  As for claiming Obama did not promote division, that is utter nonsense and we have already hashed through this before. He took the wrong side on many issues such as blaming the police or NRA before facts were even available. I still recall and oregon shooting where he came out and delivered an angry speech blaming Republicans for supporting the 2nd amendment as the reason for the shooting...before family members even knew if loved ones were victims, and before knowing if the gun was purchased legally. Again its nonsense to claim he was not responsible for the growing division in the country, or to blame it on the fact that he was black and that caused the division.

Almost everything posted above is either straight-up wrong, or missing the crucial piece of context. 

 

[HuskerNation1]

Almost everything posted above is either straight-up wrong, or missing the crucial piece of context. 

So Trump does not have greater support of blacks now than other GOP Presidents? Black and Hispanic unemployment is not at an all time low?

And you dont feel social media has supported the hardening of voters and encouraged them to pick one side or another. Social media all around encourages more anger and hatred and there is plenty of research to support this.

 

[commando]

Hey if we could end this Obamacare/socialized medicine nonsense and start to scale back Social Security promises for future generations I would be fully on board with cutting the defense budget. 

you do know that social security is not paid out of the general fund...right? 

 

[HuskerNation1]

you do know that social security is not paid out of the general fund...right? 

Yes its been pay as you go for some time now...the problem is that over time the incoming SS tax revenues will not be able to cover the outlays unless those taxes are massively raised.  If you can show me research suggesting the long term solvency of Social Security is figured out I am all ears. 

 

[commando]

Yes its been pay as you go for some time now...the problem is that over time the incoming SS tax revenues will not be able to cover the outlays unless those taxes are massively raised.  If you can show me research suggesting the long term solvency of Social Security is figured out I am all ears. 

now you are mving the goalpost.   you were blaming social security for our debt..when it isn't figured into that to begin with.

 

[Mierin]

you do know that social security is not paid out of the general fund...right? 

I believe around 5% of it is lately and it’ll increase slightly. Once the boomers die it could probably easily be fully funded by SS tax again.

But I was going to make a similar comment. People who think SS is some huge problem that’s dragging the country down (“The number one long term liability facing our country our entitelement programs like Social Security and Medicare”) can’t possibly understand how it works. And the reduction in payments could be pushed back many years, and the % from the general fund reduced to 0, if they got rid of the cap on the tax.

 

[Danny Bateman]

This is a post full of nonsense. More blacks support the GOP now than at any point in my lifetime.

No they don't. Stop telling yourself this stuff because it feels good.

Trump approval among blacks:

George W Bush Approval from early in his first term (2001-2003):

WaPo story from 1986 citing three different polls pegging Reagan at 23, 36 & 56 percent approval, respectively, with Black Americans.

So we can go back more than three decades and find Republican presidents with higher support among African Americans. Not a perfect stand-in for black approval of the GOP, but as good of a proxy as you're going to get. (Edit: I see now you asked if Trump had higher approval than past GOP presidents. So to answer your question, no, he doesn't.)

Just look at the elections Tuesday. The GOP itself didn't exactly get any more diverse than it was before. It certainly didn't get any blacker.

 

[HuskerNation1]

I believe around 5% of it is lately and it’ll increase slightly. Once the boomers die it could probably easily be fully funded by SS tax again.

But I was going to make a similar comment. People who think SS is some huge problem that’s dragging the country down (“The number one long term liability facing our country our entitelement programs like Social Security and Medicare”) can’t possibly understand how it works. And the reduction in payments could be pushed back many years, and the % from the general fund reduced to 0, if they got rid of the cap on the tax.

One of many studies showing how entitlements are driving long term debt.

https://economics21.org/html/yes-entitlements-are-driving-long-term-debt-3025.html

 

[HuskerNation1]

No they don't. Stop telling yourself this stuff because it feels good.

Trump approval among blacks:

George W Bush Approval from early in his first term (2001-2003):





WaPo story from 1986 citing three different polls pegging Reagan at 23, 36 & 56 percent approval, respectively, with Black Americans.

So we can go back more than three decades and find Republican presidents with higher support among African Americans. Not a perfect stand-in for black approval of the GOP, but as good of a proxy as you're going to get. (Edit: I see now you asked if Trump had higher approval than past GOP presidents. So to answer your question, no, he doesn't.)

Just look at the elections Tuesday. The GOP itself didn't exactly get any more diverse than it was before. It certainly didn't get any blacker.

If you want to rely on polling around 9/11 and its aftermath go for it...Bushs numbers were inflated across all groups.  As for Reagan I was 2 when he became President but you got me that it was technically during my lifetime.  I think you are onto something bringing Reagan into this discussion as Trump seems to be following his policies that benefit all Americans of all races.

 

[Ric Flair]

You have no idea how relaxed or otherwise I am, nor whether my state of relaxation or non relaxation is called for. Your comment was patronizing. I haven’t even answered the poll yet. It’s possible to make a post just to get a conversation going. I think democracy here is in danger over the long term due in part to Trump although it did not start with him.

This isn’t a “knee jerk” thread. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for a long time. Actually, I’ve been wondering about our democracy’s long-term survival since before Trump for other reasons. But he has shown so far that our checks and balances seem to be really weak and we’re setting really dangerous precedents for future leader(s). If you want to think it’s not a big deal that’s fine.

A big problem in our country now is people think we are invulnerable from the possibility of the subject of this topic happening. That is part of why many Republicans are willing to overlook what Trump is doing. They don’t think it’sa big deal and think it can’t get to the point I’m talking to, but things don’t collapse in an instant, they erode over time.

Yawn. Losing your mind over everything Trump does is a complete waste of time. Do it too often and Morning Joe might call to see if they can add you to their panel. 

 

[RedDenver]

If you want to rely on polling around 9/11 and its aftermath go for it...Bushs numbers were inflated across all groups.  As for Reagan I was 2 when he became President but you got me that it was technically during my lifetime.  I think you are onto something bringing Reagan into this discussion as Trump seems to be following his policies that benefit all Americans of all races.

Doesn't matter when the polling was done - it proves your previous statement was false:

More blacks support the GOP now than at any point in my lifetime.

 

[Mierin]

Yes, yes we must. From the likes of a$$h@!e presidents who openly question on Twitter the validity of every election that doesn't go their way.

 

[sho]

If you want to rely on polling around 9/11 and its aftermath go for it...Bushs numbers were inflated across all groups.  As for Reagan I was 2 when he became President but you got me that it was technically during my lifetime.  I think you are onto something bringing Reagan into this discussion as Trump seems to be following his policies that benefit all Americans of all races.

But just looking at the first bar graph, it indicates it was June 2001 (well before the 9/11 attacks) and Bush was getting 37% approval rating from blacks, it jumped after 9/11 to only 41% in June 2012, 9 months after the attack, not a big jump due to 9/11, and fell to 32% in 2003 (the second Bush chart).   Trump at his highest was maybe 20%.   So I would say you were wrong about blacks.