Racism - It's a real thing.

Having an interesting discussion elsewhere. There is a fantasy series I like... the one my nickname is from. And there is a small isolated area that a group of the main characters is from. It's... just plainly obvious that these characters are meant to look Caucasian. There is another character with them who is described as different looking from the rest of the people in the village, and the difference is indicated most often by his height and red hair.

5 of the actors in the TV show were announced on Wednesday, and 3 of them are not Caucasian. I don't care that they're not Caucasian. It doesn't have to be an exact retelling of the story. It's just a show based off of someone else's interpretation. I just want the characterizations to be correct.

I do however find it really weird that suddenly it seems like 75% of the fandom is defending the casting choices by claiming that they always pictured this group of kids as biracial, and now they're posting all sorts of book quotes that "prove" it. For instance there's a scene where this a$$h@!e woman pulls back the redhead's sleeve and notes that his skin is really pale compared to the darker skin of the other people from the isolated area, and therefore according to these people that means the other kids must be biracial. But the group the redhead belongs to is supposed to look Irish according to author interviews. Almost every group of people on earth has darker skin than the Irish. Also, every piece of official artwork ever released on the story has shown the characters from this area to be Caucasian. There are also hundreds of characters in this series who are not Caucasian and they are described clearly as not Caucasian. This conversation could be easily shut down, except that the author died 12 years ago.

Anyway, it's all very fascinating to me to be arguing that the author meant them to look Caucasian, with other people who have thought they were Caucasian since 1993 and changed their mind 2 days ago. The dead author was a very blunt man and it's cracking me up thinking of him shutting this talk down immediately if he were alive. I think it's perfectly fine to argue with the racist people who are throwing hissy fits because some of the actors are not Cacuasian. I just wish they would argue in an honest way.

 
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Moiraine said:
Having an interesting discussion elsewhere. There is a fantasy series I like... the one my nickname is from. And there is a small isolated area that a group of the main characters is from. It's... just plainly obvious that these characters are meant to look Caucasian. There is another character with them who is described as different looking from the rest of the people in the village, and the difference is indicated most often by his height and red hair.

5 of the actors in the TV show were announced on Wednesday, and 3 of them are not Caucasian. I don't care that they're not Caucasian. It doesn't have to be an exact retelling of the story. It's just a show based off of someone else's interpretation. I just want the characterizations to be correct.

I do however find it really weird that suddenly it seems like 75% of the fandom is defending the casting choices by claiming that they always pictured this group of kids as biracial, and now they're posting all sorts of book quotes that "prove" it. For instance there's a scene where this a$$h@!e woman pulls back the redhead's sleeve and notes that his skin is really pale compared to the darker skin of the other people from the isolated area, and therefore according to these people that means the other kids must be biracial. But the group the redhead belongs to is supposed to look Irish according to author interviews. Almost every group of people on earth has darker skin than the Irish. Also, every piece of official artwork ever released on the story has shown the characters from this area to be Caucasian. There are also hundreds of characters in this series who are not Caucasian and they are described clearly as not Caucasian. This conversation could be easily shut down, except that the author died 12 years ago.

Anyway, it's all very fascinating to me to be arguing that the author meant them to look Caucasian, with other people who have thought they were Caucasian since 1993 and changed their mind 2 days ago. The dead author was a very blunt man and it's cracking me up thinking of him shutting this talk down immediately if he were alive. I think it's perfectly fine to argue with the racist people who are throwing hissy fits because some of the actors are not Cacuasian. I just wish they would argue in an honest way.
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There are some academic studies that show that if skin color is not mentioned by the author that usually it is assumed by the reader that they character is white.  

 
teachercd said:
There are some academic studies that show that if skin color is not mentioned by the author that usually it is assumed by the reader that they character is white.  
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I had heard something similar but rather that the reader assumed the characters matched the reader's race unless stated otherwise.

 
RedDenver said:
I had heard something similar but rather that the reader assumed the characters matched the reader's race unless stated otherwise.
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I am sure there are studies that show both are correct.  

When I read a book I always picture every character with long blonde hair and big breasts...it made Lord of the Flies more interesting.  But it really ruined the movie for me.

 
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teachercd said:
There are some academic studies that show that if skin color is not mentioned by the author that usually it is assumed by the reader that they character is white.  
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RedDenver said:
I had heard something similar but rather that the reader assumed the characters matched the reader's race unless stated otherwise.
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Yep. Which is another argument people are using to try to show that these characters aren’t White, even though they are. The author complained about the official artwork on multiple occasions when prompted; about character height, character hair color, the type of weapons the bad guys were carrying, how much cleave the women were showing, what style of dress the women were wearing. Never in any of these answers did he say anything like, “oh one tiny detail - the characters from the village shouldn’t look Caucasian.” He’s got hundreds of non Caucasian characters, so I think he’s someone who would have fought for these characters to be represented as the correct race if they were done incorrectly. 

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Moiraine said:
Yep. Which is another argument people are using to try to show that these characters aren’t White, even though they are. The author complained about the official artwork on multiple occasions when prompted; about character height, character hair color, the type of weapons the bad guys were carrying, how much cleave the women were showing, what style of dress the women were wearing. Never in any of these answers did he say anything like, “oh one tiny detail - the characters from the village shouldn’t look Caucasian.” He’s got hundreds of non Caucasian characters, so I think he’s someone who would have fought for these characters to be represented as the correct race if they were done incorrectly. 

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So what's your argument here? That readers can't disagree with the author about characters' race?

 
RedDenver said:
So what's your argument here? That readers can't disagree with the author about characters' race?
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No. And I wasn't really arguing, just pointing out a discussion I thought was interesting.

Readers can picture characters however they want. My argument is the author created them Caucasian, just like he created Semirhage and Tuon and Juilin and the Sea Folk not Caucasian. And how he created the Domani and Altarans and Tairens as looking different from the Andorans. And my issue isn't that people are picturing them as not Caucasian - it's that they're telling people they can't picture them as Caucasian and that it's a cold, hard fact they weren't written as Caucasian and that they're denying facts or even racist if they picture them as Caucasian. That's what's been happening.

And like I said above I find it hard to believe all these people suddenly decided these characters aren't Caucasian 2 days ago who never discussed it when they're members of like 8 different WoT forums and talk about minute details every day. I mean, in 16 years of discussing this series, I don't remember ever reading a topic where people were upset that the book covers portrayed the villagers as Caucasian. If as many people really think they're not now, why wouldn't they have brought it up in a place where I'm sure people have talked about the type of stitching on clothing or what the characters' underpants look like. People complain about how s#!tty the cover art is all the time, but not because the characters' race is wrong.

 
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RedDenver said:
No, it's up to the reader how to interpret and imagine what they are reading, especially if the author did not specifically write about the characters' race.
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That's your opinion. If the writer creates the character then they would be the ones to determine the race of the character they created ultimately. Maybe its the authors intention to leave it up to the readers imagination but in my opinion what the writer says about a character goes. Why wouldn't it, it's their character.

 
Is it acceptable to hold the belief that even though an author pictured a “fictional” character one way, it is entirely reasonable for readers to imagine the same character differently?  And at the same time some readers claim one side or the other because they see themselves as “woke”?  

Interesting conversation because it could go on forever and nothing would come of it...

 
Nebfanatic said:
That's your opinion. If the writer creates the character then they would be the ones to determine the race of the character they created ultimately. Maybe its the authors intention to leave it up to the readers imagination but in my opinion what the writer says about a character goes. Why wouldn't it, it's their character.
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What are your thoughts on a black “Little Mermaid”?

 
funhusker said:
What are your thoughts on a black “Little Mermaid”?
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I have no problem with it but if the original creator of the character of the little mermaid (not possible btw since she is adapted from fairy tales) said she is meant to be white I would side with the creator of the character unless the reasoning was racism. I think of the JK Rowling Dumbledore situation. Who am I to tell JK Rowling what Dumbledores orientation is? Its JKs character to do with whatever she wants.

 
knapplc said:
I think it's Disney trying to wring every last dime they can out of every one of their stories. Same with the remake of the Lion King, same with the latest Mary Poppins thing. I think it's cheap and cynical and it's not something I want to watch.
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Now this is a definite affirmative in a conversation without any...

 
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