Will There Be a 2020 Football Season?

[teachercd]

That's a bad argument to make and you know it. In fact,  it's the definition of the logical fallacy of equivocation.

There are things we can't avoid in football, for example contact, without it becoming soccer. You just accept the risk and do whatever you can to mitigate it. 

But, you can avoid COVID-19 related issues. To suggest we can't, is nonsense.

Nope.

And how exactly does that make it safer to play football than staying home?

Wait...do you think that if they are not playing football that they are just going to "stay home".

You don't really think that, do you?

This is the first problem.  People need to stop operating with this weird idea that if they don't play games...that they are going to sit inside with their doors locked.  Not happening.  Not at all.

 

[307husker]

And how exactly does that make it safer to play football than staying home?

That's an unreasonable standard that nobody is suggesting.  No intelligent person would assert that there must be 0% risk of harm before an activity can be resumed.  That's just plain stupid.

Determining the degree of risk certain activities pose, and weighing that against possible gain is not unique to this pandemic.  This is just a different variable.

 

[307husker]

And how exactly does that make it safer to play football than staying home?

This post is truly LOL worthy.

 

[Undone]

I really do think one of the big variables here also is that the players don't get paid a dime, while the coaches get paid large sums of money (and as far as I know, most coaches will be paid whether the season is played or not). And to take that hypothetical a step further, if players were paid for college football and neither they nor the coaches could get paid this year unless they actually had the season, they'd all be pushing hard to play. It's just human nature.

But, that's not the dynamic.

 

[Jason Sitoke]

1. I believe that several here are trivializing human health and safety but they are just bordering on it without taking that next crucial step but they are definitely hovering on the edge; they are paying lip service to the notion of "student-athlete health is paramount."

2. As per callous, there is a fine line between being reckless and having a justification based on emotion. Callousness is just a step away. 

3. As per risk and reward, in this pandemic situation, when we know so little about it, we are attempting to get our reward (football being played) and the risk (player's health and safety). In this situation, as it stands, I would go with the situation that provides the scenario of "no risk" than to have a "little risk" because believe you me, there is a lawyer already planning on his next court case because of this. I can find a medical expert to serve as an expert witness to say what I want to say. That's no trick. 

4. Had I do a fictitious account of, let's say, a car accident, it would not have the same impact. No one dies in a car accident from Covid. Oh yeah, someone got totally oiled up on alcohol and hit the road driving and killed a family. And it was later found out that the drunk driver had covid. Covid did not create the car accident. Like Covid is linked to traffic accidents? Come on. Thus, the analogy would have been lost. I chose a situation that is probably more than likely real to get the point across. Yes, all those fans driving recklessly, speeding up and going 75 mph in a 40 mph zone to get to the game all had covid that caused them to do that behavior. Sure, makes sense.....if your in an alternate universe. 

5. If covid is an acceptable risk, why did all those schools cancel their seasons? Why did the Ivy League pull the plug? Why did a bunch of universities call off their voluntary workouts? Why aren't fans allowed to watch games in the stands? I mean, its an "acceptable risk" right? Then why wear a mask if there is an "acceptable risk"? I mean, we accept drunk drivers all the time. Why not just put out a few PSA's and tell people "do not get behind the wheel of your car if you have Covid"? Or we can have fans sign legal waivers that "in the event that you contract covid, you will not sue the university"? That would be easy, right?

6. But let's break this down.

a. a head injury is NOT contagious nor are you hospitalized and put on a ventilator unless the injury is so severe that it cuts off the respiratory system;

b. CTE is NOT contagious and does not require a ventilator;

c. drunk driving is NOT contagious and is not treated with a ventilator;

d. a torn ACL is NOT contagious and a ventilator is not needed; 

BUT Covid IS contagious. This is the big difference. 

I'll take these one at a time...

1.  Can't argue with what you believe

2.  Ummm...okay

3.  So we need to be less callous because there could be lawyers ready to get involved?

4.  I honestly have no idea where you went here.  I've reread it several times and I'm just gonna have to punt.

5.  I am not making an argument for or against closing universities, but I'm sure you see your circular logic here:  This is the way it is because other people are acting like this is the way it is because it is the way it is.

6. Once again, I have no idea what you're getting at here.

I think where we agree is that COVID is contagious.

 

[teachercd]

I guess this is what people need to answer...what do you think these college kids that are on campus are going to be doing if they don't have practice and games?

A.  Hiding inside 24/7

B.  Hanging with friends and going out

Now, if I was on the team and I was a senior and I knew I was not going to play because I suck...cancel the season.  Why do all that work and get pounded on all the time to not play.

 

[307husker]

I'll take these one at a time...

1.  Can't argue with what you believe

2.  Ummm...okay

3.  So we need to be less callous because there could be lawyers ready to get involved?

4.  I honestly have no idea where you went here.  I've reread it several times and I'm just gonna have to punt.

5.  I am not making an argument for or against closing universities, but I'm sure you see your circular logic here:  This is the way it is because other people are acting like this is the way it is because it is the way it is.

6. Once again, I have no idea what you're getting at here.

I think where we agree is that COVID is contagious.

Jason, you were far more patient with that mess than I would have been.  I'm impressed.

 

[Undone]

I guess this is what people need to answer...what do you think these college kids that are on campus are going to be doing if they don't have practice and games?

A.  Hiding inside 24/7

B.  Hanging with friends and going out

I'm definitely guessing 'B.'

 

[teachercd]

I'm definitely guessing 'B.'

Well, it is clear to me that you hate little kids and dogs.  It is also clear that you don't understand science and that you have no heart and possibly no soul.

 

[Undone]

Well, it is clear to me that you hate little kids and dogs.  It is also clear that you don't understand science and that you have no heart and possibly no soul.

I feel so understood for the first time.

 

[JJ Husker]

I really do think one of the big variables here also is that the players don't get paid a dime, while the coaches get paid large sums of money (and as far as I know, most coaches will be paid whether the season is played or not). And to take that hypothetical a step further, if players were paid for college football and neither they nor the coaches could get paid this year unless they actually had the season, they'd all be pushing hard to play. It's just human nature.

But, that's not the dynamic.

I don't want the sideline the topic (as if that would even be possible at this point) but a majority of cfb players are paid fairly handsomely. A scholarship (about 45k per year for out of state) plus all the other perks and stipends they get, not to mention NIL money they can now collect. It may not be an NFL paycheck but there is a lot of value there. 

And my understanding is scholarships will be honored whether or not they play so I'm not sure they stand to gain or lose anything either way.

 

[kansas45]

I'll take these one at a time...

1.  Can't argue with what you believe

2.  Ummm...okay

3.  So we need to be less callous because there could be lawyers ready to get involved?

4.  I honestly have no idea where you went here.  I've reread it several times and I'm just gonna have to punt.

5.  I am not making an argument for or against closing universities, but I'm sure you see your circular logic here:  This is the way it is because other people are acting like this is the way it is because it is the way it is.

6. Once again, I have no idea what you're getting at here.

I think where we agree is that COVID is contagious.

Glad you did, helps to organize my thoughts. I am a list-type of guy (except grocery lists, I don't do that because I like to drive my wife insane). 

1. thank you

2. thank you

3. The lawyers will be callous and will make their case using callousness; they will set up questions that will be accusatory such as:

a. "Did you or did you not, want to make money at the expense of my client's health."

b. "Did you or did you not ignore the available evidence on the number of deaths and the potential disability?"

c, "did you or did you not totally ignore my client's request to not play this season because he had family members who were more prone to catch this dreaded disease." 

d. I have in my hand, your honor, a document that will be marked as Exhibit #43 that indicates an internal memo that you signed that signified that "loss of playing the games would equal around $50 million dollars." Is this your signature on this internal email? Would it be safe to say that the push to play college football, at the expense of my client, was more important that his health?"

e. You stated, for the record, that money was not your intent to play the season. However, you noted on this document, that will be marked at Exhibit 54, that stated, in no uncertain terms, that "the student-athlete's health was paramount?" Then, how do you account for putting my client's overall well-being and long-term health in jeopardy by playing a season?

f. Did you take into consideration the possible long-term consequences of my client's health during the pandemic? 

4. It was easy. The car accident and covid does not follow together logically. In fact, linking the acceptance of car accidents only fuels speculation that one cares more for football than people because we have accepted traffic accidents as a society.

5. Not really circular; it is pointing that out that other universities are not playing yet others are. 

6. It's simple. We accept that in the game of football, injuries occur such as concussion and ACL tears; this is a part of the game that we accept as "the risk element." However, no one signed up for playing while a contagious disease is roaming around that no one knows the long-term consequences of and that has essentially shut down a large part of the USA economy. A knee injury has not shut down an economy. When did football become a more essential aspect than that of a someone getting a haircut? 

 

[307husker]

Glad you did, helps to organize my thoughts. I am a list-type of guy (except grocery lists, I don't do that because I like to drive my wife insane). 

1. thank you

2. thank you

3. The lawyers will be callous and will make their case using callousness; they will set up questions that will be accusatory such as:

a. "Did you or did you not, want to make money at the expense of my client's health."

b. "Did you or did you not ignore the available evidence on the number of deaths and the potential disability?"

c, "did you or did you not totally ignore my client's request to not play this season because he had family members who were more prone to catch this dreaded disease." 

d. I have in my hand, your honor, a document that will be marked as Exhibit #43 that indicates an internal memo that you signed that signified that "loss of playing the games would equal around $50 million dollars." Is this your signature on this internal email? Would it be safe to say that the push to play college football, at the expense of my client, was more important that his health?"

e. You stated, for the record, that money was not your intent to play the season. However, you noted on this document, that will be marked at Exhibit 54, that stated, in no uncertain terms, that "the student-athlete's health was paramount?" Then, how do you account for putting my client's overall well-being and long-term health in jeopardy by playing a season?

f. Did you take into consideration the possible long-term consequences of my client's health during the pandemic? 

4. It was easy. The car accident and covid does not follow together logically. In fact, linking the acceptance of car accidents only fuels speculation that one cares more for football than people because we have accepted traffic accidents as a society.

5. Not really circular; it is pointing that out that other universities are not playing yet others are. 

6. It's simple. We accept that in the game of football, injuries occur such as concussion and ACL tears; this is a part of the game that we accept as "the risk element." However, no one signed up for playing while a contagious disease is roaming around that no one knows the long-term consequences of and that has essentially shut down a large part of the USA economy. A knee injury has not shut down an economy. When did football become a more essential aspect than that of a someone getting a haircut? 

I'm fairly confident a diagnosis of CTE can be confirmed based upon your last two posts.

Either that, or you have a gas leak in your home and you should go outside and call for help.

 

[kansas45]

That's an unreasonable standard that nobody is suggesting.  No intelligent person would assert that there must be 0% risk of harm before an activity can be resumed.  That's just plain stupid.

Determining the degree of risk certain activities pose, and weighing that against possible gain is not unique to this pandemic.  This is just a different variable.

Look no further than the NCAA guidelines.

http://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-institute/resocialization-collegiate-sport-developing-standards-practice-and-competition

The CDC defines high risk of COVID-19 transmission as any situation in which there has been greater than 15 minutes of close contact, defined as being less than 6 feet apart, with an infectious individual.[3]http://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-i...ping-standards-practice-and-competition#_ftn3 Importantly, there is a risk of transmission from being present with infectious individuals who are symptomatic, pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic.

Asymptomatic spread of COVID-19 is of significant concern in the college sport environment because, like the broader student body, it is largely composed of younger adults (18-29 years of age). These individuals will often remain asymptomatic after being infected with SARS-CoV-2, but even though they have no symptoms, they are still capable of spreading this virus, which causes COVID-19. If they infect another younger adult, the risk of an adverse outcome is low, although the long-term consequences to cardiopulmonary health to themselves or other younger adults remain unknown. In contrast, contact with that same asymptomatic/minimally symptomatic individual presents a potentially lethal risk for high-risk category individuals who are far more likely to have an adverse outcome if infected with the coronavirus that causes COVID-19. Relatedly, pre-symptomatic spread is also a concern, as these individuals are infected with COVID-19 but have not yet developed symptoms or signs of this disease.

The CDC recently updated its guidance to emphasize that, among adults, the risk for severe illness from COVID-19 increases with age, with older adults at highest risk and 8 out of 10 COVID-19-related deaths reported in the United States to date occurring in adults age 65 and older. In addition, the CDC also has established that individuals of any age with the following underlying medical conditions are at increased risk: [4]http://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-i...ping-standards-practice-and-competition#_ftn4

·       Chronic kidney disease.

·       COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease).

·       Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from solid organ transplant.

·       Obesity (body mass index of 30 or greater).

·       Serious heart conditions, such as heart failure, coronary artery disease, or cardiomyopathies.

·       Sickle cell disease.

·       Type 2 diabetes mellitus.

Finally, the CDC has advised that children who have complex medical situations, who have congenital heart disease or who have neurologic, genetic, metabolic conditions are at higher risk for severe illness from COVID-19 than other children.

While data is still fairly limited, the CDC has said people with the following conditions might also be at an increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19:[5]http://www.ncaa.org/sport-science-i...ping-standards-practice-and-competition#_ftn5

·       Asthma (moderate to severe).

·       Cerebrovascular disease (affects blood vessels and blood supply to the brain).

·       Cystic fibrosis.

·       Hypertension or high blood pressure.

·       Immunocompromised state (weakened immune system) from blood or bone marrow transplant, immune deficiencies, HIV, use of corticosteroids or use of other immune weakening medicines.

·       Neurologic conditions, such as dementia.

·       Liver disease.

·       Pregnancy.

·       Pulmonary fibrosis (having damaged or scarred lung tissues).

·       Smoking.

·       Thalassemia (a type of blood disorder).

·       Type 1 diabetes mellitus.

Sport Classification Update

The categorization of sport risk was previously noted in the Action Plan document and is based on consensus from the NCAA COVID-19 Advisory Panel and the AMSSM COVID-19 Working Group and on the probability and significance of respiratory droplet spread during vigorous exercise when physical distancing and masking are not applied or are not possible. Importantly, the sport classification refers to sport-specific training and competition and not cross-training or other aspects of training. For example, swimming is a low contact risk sport, but dry land training activities such as trampoline, stretching, and tumbling may be associated with higher risk activity if risk-mitigating strategies noted above are not in place.

The risk assessment has now been updated below to include all NCAA-sponsored sports, including both winter and spring sports. Importantly, this risk assessment differs from the National Federation of State High School Associations and the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee and also may differ from state/local risk categorization guidance.

·       Low contact risk: bowling, diving, equestrian, fencing, golf, rifle, skiing, swimming, tennis, track and field.

·       Medium contact risk: acrobatics and tumbling, baseball, beach volleyball, cross country*, gymnastics, softball, triathlon*.

·       High contact risk: basketball, field hockey, football, ice hockey, lacrosse, rowing, rugby, soccer, squash, volleyball, water polo, wrestling.

* The level of risk in cross country, track and field and triathlon are dependent upon the student-athlete’s proximity to other unmasked individuals. For example, the start or finish of a race may involve a group of athletes who are breathing heavily in a group space with a breakdown in physical distancing.

 

[kansas45]

I'm fairly confident a diagnosis of CTE can be confirmed based upon your last two posts.

Either that, or you have a gas leak in your home and you should go outside and call for help.

The diagnosis of CTE is based on post-mortem (autopsy) examination. No one has tested by Tau protein levels. Thus, your joke at my expense has fallen painfully flat to those who know this type of information. Now, if you said head injury, I probably would have laughed with you. 

Everything runs on electric in my house. Thanks. Oh, I do keep my car outside so you do not have to worry about CO poisoning. Also, I have fairly good ventilation in my house thus you do not have to worry about excessive CO2 demands creating hypercapnia. Excess C02 can build up in one's blood and cause disorientation due to the lack of oxygen binding to the hemoglobin thus limiting O2 transport or what can be referred to as DO2 (oxygen delivery). But I believe you know that due your intimate knowledge of autoerotic asphyxiation. 

You can read up on hypercapnia here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK500012/

Here is short reading on hemoglobin. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK525974/

But I am glad you raised this important subject up as we are going to start slowly learning that continued mask wearing hypothetically could result in some people's increased amount to CO2.