Cases of Election Fraud

Redux said:
Their shouldn't be a reason for anyone to doubt the result of our elections.  If they come into question, it shouldn't be this hard to verify the results.  But it is because then the loser can cry foul and the winner can label conspiracy.  It's another manipulation tool.

I'm a fan of individual states being able to set their own processes, but that failed massively this time around.
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Anyone can doubt anything for any reason, but that doesn't mean their doubts are logical or credible. There's nothing about our elections this time around that gives me any doubts at all. All the close races performed recounts, and by all indications they went smoothly. This wasn't hard to do. So unless there's evidence that something was questionable or done incorrectly, the wailing and gnashing of teeth being done is all just performative political nonsense.

EDIT: What were the massive failures that you saw this time around?

 
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Redux said:
Their shouldn't be a reason for anyone to doubt the result of our elections.  If they come into question, it shouldn't be this hard to verify the results.  But it is because then the loser can cry foul and the winner can label conspiracy.  It's another manipulation tool.

I'm a fan of individual states being able to set their own processes, but that failed massively this time around.
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The election has been verified multiple times in the swing states.  Not sure what you’re talking about.  

 
RedDenver said:
Anyone can doubt anything for any reason, but that doesn't mean their doubts are logical or credible. There's nothing about our elections this time around that gives me any doubts at all. All the close races performed recounts, and by all indications they went smoothly. This wasn't hard to do. So unless there's evidence that something was questionable or done incorrectly, the wailing and gnashing of teeth being done is all just performative political nonsense.

EDIT: What were the massive failures that you saw this time around?
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Recounts of the same fudged up ballots are going to yield the same fudged up result.  That's my concern.  And depending on your idea of important, there have been verified miscounts from the first time around.  Minimal or not, that give me doubts.  If the result was different in any capacity, that casts doubt.  It doesn't matter what the percentage is or if the outcome didn't change.

The massive failures in my opinion, though I understand others disagree, is the lengthy process it took to even get to the first results.  We knew about this election, we knew about the mail in voting and yet it took over a week to get the result.  My preference would have been to start counting the mail ins the day before and required them to be in no later than election day.  

 
If every vote is supposed to matter and we can verifiably say that there are discrepancies between counts, then it matters.  Transparency matters and so does process.

 
Redux said:
Recounts of the same fudged up ballots are going to yield the same fudged up result.  That's my concern.  And depending on your idea of important, there have been verified miscounts from the first time around.  Minimal or not, that give me doubts.  If the result was different in any capacity, that casts doubt.  It doesn't matter what the percentage is or if the outcome didn't change.

The massive failures in my opinion, though I understand others disagree, is the lengthy process it took to even get to the first results.  We knew about this election, we knew about the mail in voting and yet it took over a week to get the result.  My preference would have been to start counting the mail ins the day before and required them to be in no later than election day.  
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There were something like 155,000,000 votes cast nationally.  It'd be impossible for there not to be some mistakes.  But it boils down to percentages.  The amount of mistakes were infinitesimal.

The Director of Cyber Security, a Trump appointee and Republican, said this was the most secure election in history.  Then he was canned.  Hmmm.  There's been zero evidence of widespread fraud.  This notion that there was is purely gaslighting.  Ironic this was telegraphed months before the election as if someone's backup plan for losing was to play this card. 

I'm not sure how people come to choose to believe a documented pathological liar with a vested interest in continuing this charade over poll workers, judges, legislatures who certified the results, and the Supreme Court.  The mental gymnastics to do so are Tsukhara-esque.  It's actually insulting to everyone who worked to make sure this election went off under extreme circumstances i.e. covid

 
Redux said:
Recounts of the same fudged up ballots are going to yield the same fudged up result.  That's my concern.  And depending on your idea of important, there have been verified miscounts from the first time around.  Minimal or not, that give me doubts.  If the result was different in any capacity, that casts doubt.  It doesn't matter what the percentage is or if the outcome didn't change.

The massive failures in my opinion, though I understand others disagree, is the lengthy process it took to even get to the first results.  We knew about this election, we knew about the mail in voting and yet it took over a week to get the result.  My preference would have been to start counting the mail ins the day before and required them to be in no later than election day.  
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Why are these votes fudged up?

 
Redux said:
Recounts of the same fudged up ballots are going to yield the same fudged up result.  That's my concern.  And depending on your idea of important, there have been verified miscounts from the first time around.  Minimal or not, that give me doubts.  If the result was different in any capacity, that casts doubt.  It doesn't matter what the percentage is or if the outcome didn't change.
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What fudged up ballots? I haven't seen any evidence of them.

The massive failures in my opinion, though I understand others disagree, is the lengthy process it took to even get to the first results.  We knew about this election, we knew about the mail in voting and yet it took over a week to get the result.  My preference would have been to start counting the mail ins the day before and required them to be in no later than election day.  
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Yes, I agree. There are many states that do exactly what you're suggesting. Other states that have had legislation to do this have been killed by Republicans including this year.

Redux said:
If every vote is supposed to matter and we can verifiably say that there are discrepancies between counts, then it matters.  Transparency matters and so does process.
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But there is transparency or you'd have never known about the discrepancy in counts. There's never been and never will be a perfect system that gets every single vote correct. But the system we have allows for recounts and even challenges to the process, which allows us to have both transparency and trust in the accuracy of the system, or know that the system is flawed in some way so we should change it.

 
Scarlet said:
There were something like 155,000,000 votes cast nationally.  It'd be impossible for there not to be some mistakes.  But it boils down to percentages.  The amount of mistakes were infinitesimal.

The Director of Cyber Security, a Trump appointee and Republican, said this was the most secure election in history.  Then he was canned.  Hmmm.  There's been zero evidence of widespread fraud.  This notion that there was is purely gaslighting.  Ironic this was telegraphed months before the election as if someone's backup plan for losing was to play this card. 

I'm not sure how people come to choose to believe a documented pathological liar with a vested interest in continuing this charade over poll workers, judges, legislatures who certified the results, and the Supreme Court.  The mental gymnastics to do so are Tsukhara-esque.  It's actually insulting to everyone who worked to make sure this election went off under extreme circumstances i.e. covid
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Then something needs to change.  Accepting mistakes isn't acceptable.

Partly gaslighting, absolutely.  Partly reasonable to ask questions.

Literally every politician in Washington but sure.  Because Trump is a piece of s#!t doesn't mean we should not question things if there is reasonable doubt.

It's not insulting, integrity is vital.  If we accept that there is cheating every election, we would also have to accept that in a record voter turnout year that coule mean record cheating.  I have no problems looking into it if there is reasonable doubt.

BigRedBuster said:
Why are these votes fudged up?
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Partly because people still can't fill them out properly.  Partly because machines can't be trusted.  Partly because people can and do manipulate things.

RedDenver said:
What fudged up ballots? I haven't seen any evidence of them.

Yes, I agree. There are many states that do exactly what you're suggesting. Other states that have had legislation to do this have been killed by Republicans including this year.

But there is transparency or you'd have never known about the discrepancy in counts. There's never been and never will be a perfect system that gets every single vote correct. But the system we have allows for recounts and even challenges to the process, which allows us to have both transparency and trust in the accuracy of the system, or know that the system is flawed in some way so we should change it.
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I'm don't doubt that.  And if there are a lot of fudged ballots, you won't see them.

Not just that but Trump was stupid by chastising the mail ins to begin with.  He should have heralded them to his constituency.

I want more transparency regarding the counting process.  Votes should remain anonymous but the process of tallying them shouldn't be in question.

And we should.  I wish I had the answer for this on HOW we should change it.

 
Redux said:
Partly because people still can't fill them out properly.  Partly because machines can't be trusted.  Partly because people can and do manipulate things.
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Where is the proof that this happens in a grand scale enough to cause problems?

All the states that have used machines also keep the paper copies.  They then have recounted those.  Some have then put them back into the machine to recount them.  The counts come out the same.

This is the issue with what Trump has been doing.  He purposely has sewn doubt in people's minds where there isn't any valid reason for that.

 
Redux said:
Because Trump is a piece of s#!t doesn't mean we should not question things if there is reasonable doubt.
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Your last few posts are proof that Trump's and the GOP's disinformation campaign has been effective. The entire goal was to make people question the process and to sow chaos into the system. He has been crowing about rigged elections since 2016, the GOP intentionally made it harder for Americans to vote and for votes to be counted, and then used the delays that they themselves created to accuse the system of being rigged against them.

It is madness. There has never been evidence of election fraud against Trump, while he openly tried to corrupt the system himself. Legitimate concerns in any process should be examined, but the "reasonable doubt" you speak of simply does not exist. All of Trump's flailings have been designed to make people like you doubt everything and trust nothing, and apparently it has worked.

 
Redux said:
I'm don't doubt that.  And if there are a lot of fudged ballots, you won't see them.
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Literally every ballot is counted by a minimum of two people that are not in the same party and one or more observers watching them. You can sign up to volunteer to be a ballot counter or count observer if you really think there are mysterious fudged ballots out there.

I want more transparency regarding the counting process.  Votes should remain anonymous but the process of tallying them shouldn't be in question.
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Not to be rude, but I think you should learn how the actual process works. There's a tremendous amount of transparency throughout the process.

I posted a twitter thread a while back of a volunteer describing how ballots are processed, but I can't find it now.

But here's a thread of the recount process in North Carolina:


 
BigRedBuster said:
All the states that have used machines also keep the paper copies.  They then have recounted those.  Some have then put them back into the machine to recount them.  The counts come out the same.

This is the issue with what Trump has been doing.  He purposely has sewn doubt in people's minds where there isn't any valid reason for that.
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And if the machine failed the first time, it failed the second time.

I get it, Orange Man bad and all of that.  I'd still like to know and not assume he's spinning a web

 
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