Reparations, Racism & Building a better Society

[Archy1221]

8 minutes ago, Guy Chamberlin said:

No time to read? Start by telling me how this angry Black woman is wrong:

She sure is angry, and yes her anger is quite misplaced. 
 

The looters segment was just asinine.  
 

“The black community” as she states it didn’t build a damn thing for anyone in my family, my parents family or my grandparents family like she claims so she wrong about that.  
 

No one in my family had a 400 year head start in building wealth.  I didn’t inherent a penny when my dad died and won’t when my mom passes.  Great grandparents were dirt poor iowa farmers with my dad as first to go to college. So she wrong about that too.  
 

Tulsa and Rosewood are a damn shame, should never happen again, were before my parents  time, should be a reminder of what happened in those areas past but shouldn’t be a crutch as to why someone can’t be successful today.  Bank flat out stole my parents successful furniture business in the ‘80’s during the oil and farm crash causing them hundreds of thousands of debt and me to grow up poor.  That didn’t cause me or my siblings to say “f#&% it” and give up on trying to do better.  
 

Minority poverty rates have been dropping like a rock ever since the 60’s.  It’s a shame she stays in the grievance lane instead of focusing her energy on moving forward 

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

She sure is angry, and yes her anger is quite misplaced. 
 

The looters segment was just asinine.  
 

“The black community” as she states it didn’t build a damn thing for anyone in my family, my parents family or my grandparents family like she claims so she wrong about that.  
 

No one in my family had a 400 year head start in building wealth.  I didn’t inherent a penny when my dad died and won’t when my mom passes.  Great grandparents were dirt poor iowa farmers with my dad as first to go to college. So she wrong about that too.  
 

Tulsa and Rosewood are a damn shame, should never happen again, were before my parents  time, should be a reminder of what happened in those areas past but shouldn’t be a crutch as to why someone can’t be successful today.  Bank flat out stole my parents successful furniture business in the ‘80’s during the oil and farm crash causing them hundreds of thousands of debt and me to grow up poor.  That didn’t cause me or my siblings to say “f#&% it” and give up on trying to do better.  
 

Minority poverty rates have been dropping like a rock ever since the 60’s.  It’s a shame she stays in the grievance lane instead of focusing her energy on moving forward 

Yikes.

My grand-parents were dirt poor Iowa farmers, too, and my Dad was also the first to go to college, but apparently we've gone in different directions in both statistical analysis and human empathy. 

 

[Archy1221]

Yikes.

My grand-parents were dirt poor Iowa farmers, too, and my Dad was also the first to go to college, but apparently we've gone in different directions in both statistical analysis and human empathy. 

different in Statistical analysis how?  
 

One can have human empathy while also expecting someone to eventually let go of the past generations grievances since they don’t currently apply and work toward future generations in the Worlds best society for allowing next generation wealth.  We do not live in a caste system.  
 

I’m not gonna feel guilt tripped for anything that happened in the far past.  however, I will do what I personally can to make sure I treat everyone with equality, respect, and expect that people work to better themselves at the same time.  If that is lacking human empathy by your standards then so be it.  I won’t lose any sleep on it.  
 

 

[Enhance]

Tulsa and Rosewood are a damn shame, should never happen again, were before my parents  time, should be a reminder of what happened in those areas past but shouldn’t be a crutch as to why someone can’t be successful today.  Bank flat out stole my parents successful furniture business in the ‘80’s during the oil and farm crash causing them hundreds of thousands of debt and me to grow up poor.  That didn’t cause me or my siblings to say “f#&% it” and give up on trying to do better. 

For what it's worth, most Black people I know do not use slavery or difficult conditions growing up as a reason for why the Black community can't do better and shouldn't do better. And there are powerful voices in Black communities pushing the same message.

I don't want to speak for Guy, but I think it's important for all to acknowledge why black communities have found themselves in the position they're in today. It has been due in large part to injustices and inequities (systemic or otherwise) that they're still trying to claw their way out of. Is that an excuse? No. Is it a reason that explains the predicament? Absolutely. And those are two very different things. See my post above about the book White Rage.

Hell, Georgia still had Jim Crow era laws on the books in the early stages of the 21st century. The move to eradicate the laws by that point was largely symbolic, but the fact that they still existed proves that we're not near as removed from racism and discrimination as we'd like to think we are.

 

[Ulty]

I will do what I personally can to make sure I treat everyone with equality, respect, 

 

[Archy1221]

:dunno

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

different in Statistical analysis how?  
 

One can have human empathy while also expecting someone to eventually let go of the past generations grievances since they don’t currently apply and work toward future generations in the Worlds best society for allowing next generation wealth.  We do not live in a caste system.  
 

I’m not gonna feel guilt tripped for anything that happened in the far past.  however, I will do what I personally can to make sure I treat everyone with equality, respect, and expect that people work to better themselves at the same time.  If that is lacking human empathy by your standards then so be it.  I won’t lose any sleep on it.  
 

How far back in the past should we go? 

7 years ago when they started gutting the Voting Rights Act and kept going? 

Two months ago, when the President of the United States told Confederate flag waving insurrectionists "you're special, we love you."

The stunning rise of violent white supremacists and millions of their barely-cloaked enablers, happening as we speak? 

Or at some point do you realize this goes on every single day in ways you choose not to imagine, and 150 years ago means nothing because it's one long horrific history that white conservatives want to blow off with anecdotal pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps horse s#!t.  The mere suggestion that this is the "far past" and Black people need to let go of something that would outrage you to the very core suggests a profound lack of empathy. 

 

[Archy1221]

How far back in the past should we go? 

7 years ago when they started gutting the Voting Rights Act and kept going? 

Two months ago, when the President of the United States told Confederate flag waving insurrectionists "you're special, we love you."

The stunning rise of violent white supremacists and millions of their barely-cloaked enablers, happening as we speak? 

Or at some point do you realize this goes on every single day in ways you choose not to imagine, and 150 years ago means nothing because it's one long horrific history that white conservatives want to blow off with anecdotal pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps horse s#!t.  The mere suggestion that this is the "far past" and Black people need to let go of something that would outrage you to the very core suggests a profound lack of empathy. 

None of the attempted internet moral shaming blabber had anything to do with my questions.  I get that it probably feels good to write down though.  here’s my thoughts on your post:

The voting rights act was outdated, voter ID laws are fine.  Here’s a quick tip, the next Presidential election is in 3 2/3rds years.  Plenty of time to get one if it’s important to you.  Congress is about to give many people $1400 plus money for kids.  If it costs a few bucks for a birth certificate then set that $20 aside.  Plenty of time. 
Now, if they want a Covid shot and have to show ID, which tends to be the case, they are screwed at the moment.  
 

The riot at the Capitol actually had nothing to do with any discrimination or hate towards minorities and the folks who testified to Congress said as much.  Why you would bring that up in a discussion about whether slavery is responsible for black families being broken up in modern day (which is what I was disputing in the first place) is quite silly.  
 

You bring up the rise is white nationalists, I assume because of the crimes they are committing. Any hate crime is an awful hate crime and here are statistics.  The number of Hate crimes against African American declined a bit in 2019.  As far who is committing these hate crimes, by your assertion one would think the percentage of white hate crimes would be growing by a large margin because you say there is a “stunning rise of violent white supremacists.   In actuality, the data since since 2013 shows that known offender hate crimes percentages for white Americans and black Americans have been remarkably steady hovering around 52-53% for whites and 23-24% for blacks.  
 

So, whites represent roughly 58-59% of the population and black Americans represent roughly 15-16% of the population.  So white people are committing a bit lower number of hate crimes than expected based on population and blacks a bit more.  Where as you make it sound like white hate crime is exploding.  Again, Internet moral shaming feels good, but it’s just not true.  
 

On to your last paragraph where the moral policing really gets going.  Slavery is bad, was bad, and it would be nice if our countries history was not a part of it.  Racism is bad, was bad, was worse though and is getting better, but will probably always exist in a certain, hopefully small segment of the population regardless of color.  Black Americans went through some horrible horrible things. Some are still discriminated against.  Same can be said for Native Americans who actually had it worse than any minority group and still do.  
 

Any historically depressed group of people can choose to live in the past with their grievances and look forward to define a better future for their next generation.  The ones who look forward are generally the ones who get out of the cycle of poverty in my experience.  You talking down on my empathy for others feels good to write, matters very little to me since you know very little about what I do in my community and doesn’t help advance any conversation. 
 

 

[BigRedBuster]

Or at some point do you realize this goes on every single day in ways you choose not to imagine, and 150 years ago means nothing because it's one long horrific history that white conservatives want to blow off with anecdotal pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps horse s#!t.  The mere suggestion that this is the "far past" and Black people need to let go of something that would outrage you to the very core suggests a profound lack of empathy. 

My brother moved to Louisiana and wanted to become a contractor.  So, he needed a state contractor license.  I don't remember the specifics, but after he went to apply, he told me it was one of the oddest things he's experienced.  He could tell the process was put in place in a way to make it much harder for black people from getting the license.  Now, my brother is nowhere close to a liberal that would be actively looking for these things.  So, if he noticed, it had to be pretty obvious.  

I doubt very seriously if anything has changed.

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

This notion that we've put racism in the rear view mirror, and Black grievance is just whining, and that cherry-picked stats and straw men arguments will show them how wrong their grievances are might be part of the problem.

There are indeed some statistics on race and hate crimes and poverty that might surprise the average limousine liberal, especially when removed from the larger context.. But you really shouldn't  use them to dismiss persistent issues. 

The GOP doesn't want any Democrat to vote, and they are overtly targeting Black populations with voter suppression. This would tend to cause a Black person to think your "slavery WAS bad, but it's time to move on" argument a tad insensitive. I don't know if you trust any source, but there are plenty of state Republicans who've freely admitted racist tactics to achieve their conservative goals. 

https://time.com/5902729/black-voter-suppression-2020/

https://truthout.org/articles/georgia-bill-would-criminalize-giving-water-to-voters-waiting-in-long-lines/

Also, white supremacism in both tacit and violent strains is most definitely on the upswing. You know that fear some people get that a liberal is coming to take their guns away? Replace that with facts and multiply by ten. But don't tell the rest of us America is "moving forward." Tons of other sources for this  — including a very recent FBI assessment if you want to fish around.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2020/06/25/white-supremacist-terrorism-on-the-rise-and-spreading/?sh=3d5e6c2e5a0f 

Say, as long as you brought up dirt poor Iowans, here's a little something about my Dad, who passed away a couple months ago. When I say dirt poor I mean Tobacco Road, no car, no phone, dirt floor rural Iowa. As a teenager he worked triple shifts at the small town grocery store to make a little money for his family and save a little for himself. Unlike the rest of them, he wanted out of there. There was one Black family in town, and the father would come around every week to the back door to get his groceries. The owner told him he could use the front door, but the Black father didn't want to make trouble. The lesson was that even the poorest white kid with the crappiest job was socially superior to any grown Black man. Some people appreciate any power they can work to their advantage. My dad knew it was wrong as a boy, and lived the rest of his life knowing the difference between hard work and institutional racism.

For most of my life, the story was that my Dad worked three shifts to put himself through college. It's the American story, and it's not entirely untrue. But about 10 years ago he added a qualifier: all his hard work wouldn't have gotten him into college, that bar was still too high. He had volunteered for the Army during World War II and served in the Occupying Force in Germany and Belgium. Only through the money and entry provided by the GI Bill when he returned home was my dad able to afford the University of Nebraska. He spent the rest of his life with the understanding that leveling the playing field isn't socialism, it's equal opportunity. And it can make all the difference in the world.

You're right, Archy. Writing this stuff does make me feel better. Thanks for listening. 

 

[Archy1221]

This notion that we've put racism in the rear view mirror, and Black grievance is just whining,

Quite literally no one on this board that I read has said this.  I think everyone has actually acknowledged the opposite, that racist people will exist quite far into the future.  
Don’t think I saw anyone claim Black grievance is just whining.  I’ve wrote and read other people write that their grievances about things that happened over 150 years ago are misplaced.  Grievances that happen currently or a generation ago are worth airing and speaking about so society gets better.  Trying to turn around what people actually say too fit your argument isn’t a good look IMO.  
 

cherry-picked stats and straw men arguments

Actual FBI stats on hate crimes are cherry picked?  Ok, that’s a new one.  
 

There was one Black family in town, and the father would come around every week to the back door to get his groceries.

I didn’t realize this still happens in America.  Or I’m guessing that it doesn’t and society is progressing. 
 

You're right, Archy. Writing this stuff does make me feel better. Thanks for listening. 

Your welcome.  Now that’s it out of your system, we can have a conversation about how to continue to move things forward for the generational poor creating equal opportunity not equity.   

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Quite literally no one on this board that I read has said this.  I think everyone has actually acknowledged the opposite, that racist people will exist quite far into the future.  Don’t think I saw anyone claim Black grievance is just whining.  I’ve wrote and read other people write that their grievances about things that happened over 150 years ago are misplaced.  Grievances that happen currently or a generation ago are worth airing and speaking about so society gets better.  Trying to turn around what people actually say too fit your argument isn’t a good look IMO.  

I stated from the outset my rejection of Reparations as a solution. The issue was really whether the American timeline of racism from slavery until today is more cause for hope than concern, and given the police shootings, voter suppression, and having a President of the United States endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan,  the notion of progress has taken a serious hit. Suggesting that Blacks not focus on the distant past and thank America for its caste-less system could quite literally be interpreted as "stop whining, move on."  Acknowledging that racist people will exist far into the future is the opposite of nothing being discussed here. 

Actual FBI stats on hate crimes are cherry picked?  Ok, that’s a new one.   

This thread is full of links to factual articles about racial inequities, disturbing trends, and problems we thought have gone away, yet haven't. You chose not to address those. So the presumption that FBI hate crime stats somehow negates all this is telling. Especially if the takeaway is that the rise in anti-Semitic and anti-Hispanic hate crimes means Blacks have less room to complain.

https://apnews.com/article/hate-crimes-rise-fbi-data-ebbcadca8458aba96575da905650120d

I didn’t realize this still happens in America.  Or I’m guessing that it doesn’t and society is progressing. 
  

Yes, Black people can now enter the front door of the grocery store. Again, you seem to dismiss that as something from a deep past that's no longer relevant.

Do you know what still happens to Black people in America on a daily basis? s#!t you would never, ever tolerate if it happened to you or your family.  Those videos of over-reacting cops and unhinged Karens that go viral aren't outliers -- they just mean everyone has a cell phone camera now, and we're seeing things that have been happening all along. That discomforting reality forces some people to blame the Black people themselves. Maybe I"m old-fashioned, but that's f#&%ed-up. 

Replace my dad's grocery store with a modern Denny's,  Walgreen's, or Anthropologie,  and you'll still find Blacks being systematically profiled and treated with suspicion. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/05/as-black-buying-power-grows-racial-profiling-by-retailers-remains-a-problem.html

 

[B.B. Hemingway]

I stated from the outset my rejection of Reparations as a solution. The issue was really whether the American timeline of racism from slavery until today is more cause for hope than concern, and given the police shootings, voter suppression, and having a President of the United States endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan,  the notion of progress has taken a serious hit. Suggesting that Blacks not focus on the distant past and thank America for its caste-less system could quite literally be interpreted as "stop whining, move on."  Acknowledging that racist people will exist far into the future is the opposite of nothing being discussed here. 

This thread is full of links to factual articles about racial inequities, disturbing trends, and problems we thought have gone away, yet haven't. You chose not to address those. So the presumption that FBI hate crime stats somehow negates all this is telling. Especially if the takeaway is that the rise in anti-Semitic and anti-Hispanic hate crimes means Blacks have less room to complain.

https://apnews.com/article/hate-crimes-rise-fbi-data-ebbcadca8458aba96575da905650120d

Yes, Black people can now enter the front door of the grocery store. Again, you seem to dismiss that as something from a deep past that's no longer relevant.

Do you know what still happens to Black people in America on a daily basis? s#!t you would never, ever tolerate if it happened to you or your family.  Those videos of over-reacting cops and unhinged Karens that go viral aren't outliers -- they just mean everyone has a cell phone camera now, and we're seeing things that have been happening all along. That discomforting reality forces some people to blame the Black people themselves. Maybe I"m old-fashioned, but that's f#&%ed-up. 

Replace my dad's grocery store with a modern Denny's,  Walgreen's, or Anthropologie,  and you'll still find Blacks being systematically profiled and treated with suspicion. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/05/as-black-buying-power-grows-racial-profiling-by-retailers-remains-a-problem.html

Honest question: Do you think that kind of profiling is unique to the white business owner?

 

[Guy Chamberlin]

Honest question: Do you think that kind of profiling is unique to the white business owner?

No. 

 

[Mierin]

Lots of irrelevant questions here. Just like, it doesn’t matter if the police officer who killer an unarmed Black man is White or Black. Systematic racism is what policy can account for. Individual racism isn’t really something the government can do much about.

So when it comes to police violence being more prevalent with Black victims and trying to solve the problem, you look at things like the war on drugs. Blacks have lower drug use overall than Whites but their arrest rate for drug possession is much higher. That leads to a higher prevalence of homes without fathers in Black communities. Individual accountability is a factor but when you have 4x the arrest rate but the same rate of crime, that is where systematic racism comes in and policy changes can help fix it.

Talking about individual accountability when it comes to this stuff is off topic as far as I’m concerned because there is data point after data point showing that Blacks, even with the same characteristics, income, criminal background, etc. are more likely to face negative circumstances. It isn’t even hard or complicated to find this information or to gather the data. Just look up what happens when mystery shopping is used if you want an example. If you’re Black it’s harder to get a loan even with the same income and credit score.