Tangent Thread - P&R Edition

Guy Chamberlin said:
For the record, I don't have any problem with how Archy responds to me, or to the board in general. He's on a political spectrum shared by 2/3rds of Nebraskans, and although I find the GOP and Rightwing talking points increasingly maddening, it would be weird to have no one on here making them. That's not trolling. Unless we've established that P&R is a GOP free zone. 
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I sort of agree with this but I am curious about one nuance. It doesn’t really matter to me if it’s considered trolling or not but what do you call it when a person constantly ignores better and more well vetted and accepted facts and keeps making points and arguments that fly in the face of those facts? Certainly that can’t be solely attributed to just a different point of view or just a difference of party preference. In many cases it has to be an intentional decision to act like the facts staring them in the face don’t exist. So I ask, if that’s not trolling then what is it? And if it is something slightly different, what is substantially wrong with some calling it trolling? Actually seems like a nicer option than calling them stupid or dense or willfully dishonest or all the other things it also is.

 
JJ chimes in. JJ lives in [not Nebraska] and what most would consider a liberal state.

Who's next for Guy's "this site should reflect the polling demo of Nebraska?"

Anyone?

 
knapplc said:
JJ chimes in. JJ lives in [not Nebraska] and what most would consider a liberal state.

Who's next for Guy's "this site should reflect the polling demo of Nebraska?"

Anyone?
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Well, I live in probably the most conservative county (of any consequence) in what has definitely become a liberal state. 
 

When we moved to Colorado in the mid 80’s I think the state generally leaned a little to the right with the exception of Boulder.  Boulder has always been a goofy exception, obviously. But for the longest time the state was solidly purple. I kind of liked it that way, it provided some balance and at least the illusion of a happy medium. But alas about 8 years ago, give or take, we officially flipped to unquestionable blue status. I just recently discovered we have the most permissive abortion laws (I don’t think there are any actually) of any state in the country.

Thus ends the political leanings of Colorado primer.

 
knapplc said:
JJ chimes in. JJ lives in [not Nebraska] and what most would consider a liberal state.

Who's next for Guy's "this site should reflect the polling demo of Nebraska?"

Anyone?
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Again, weird exaggeration. I'll stick with my last couple posts, which offered some interesting thoughts that you bypassed on your way to a heated over-reaction. 

If your point is that this P&R Forum is more liberal because a lot of folks don't actually live in Nebraska.....sure. I guess.

We could also talk about how your thin skin and hectoring school marm responses turn off people of all political persuasions, but I feel like we've been through that a few times. 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
Again, weird exaggeration. I'll stick with my last couple posts, which offered some interesting thoughts that you bypassed on your way to a heated over-reaction. 

If your point is that this P&R Forum is more liberal because a lot of folks don't actually live in Nebraska.....sure. I guess.

We could also talk about how your thin skin and hectoring school marm responses turn off people of all political persuasions, but I feel like we've been through that a few times. 
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I asked you a simple question, and showed examples of why your premise is wrong, and you turn it into a personal attack. 

You're being weird. Stop being weird.

 
JJ Husker said:
I sort of agree with this but I am curious about one nuance. It doesn’t really matter to me if it’s considered trolling or not but what do you call it when a person constantly ignores better and more well vetted and accepted facts and keeps making points and arguments that fly in the face of those facts? Certainly that can’t be solely attributed to just a different point of view or just a difference of party preference. In many cases it has to be an intentional decision to act like the facts staring them in the face don’t exist. So I ask, if that’s not trolling then what is it? And if it is something slightly different, what is substantially wrong with some calling it trolling? Actually seems like a nicer option than calling them stupid or dense or willfully dishonest or all the other things it also is.
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Thanks for the honest, well-phrased question. To the first part, I think we are in way too deep in an ideological civil war and a large conservative segment believes their very way of life is threatened, and either sincerely or disingenuously they are willing to ignore all contradictory evidence and simply hang onto their gut feeling. There is also a pretty sophisticated industry out there giving these people alternative facts and talking points with just enough credence to feel they're having a legitimate debate with a legitimate ideological enemy. 

Once you've gone "fake news" you can believe whatever you want, cite whoever you want. Also, and hear me out....some of their gut feelings are valid. There's a Venn diagram where we all have a lot more in common than we've been led to believe. 

Now I'd like to say the facts are always on my side. But that's simply not true. Even if you go with the Archy Split:  84% Wrong/16% Right, you will have to face some pretty awkward wrongs. Liberals did plenty of trolling with claims and memes about Russia, COVID, Trump, the economy, etc., that didn't stand up to vetting or Snopes. Hunter Biden's laptop hardly absolves Trump, but it turns out it's really a thing.  Nancy Pelosi's husband getting a DUI shouldn't move the needle in any political discussion, but I don't see any restraint when an obscure GOP clown gets caught doing something stupid in public. Sometimes when I see blatant rightwing horses#!t, I bring it here specifically because it should embarrass our handful of rightwing defenders, and I want to see them defend it. Trolling? Maybe.

I don't know about "nicer" but I think it's more honest and to the point to accuse someone of being willfully dishonest rather than trolling. What makes this a really good P&R Forum is that most posters ask for and supply reasonably good source material, and admit when they're conflicted.  That may also be the reason why a lot of folks no longer post here. You kinda need to bring your A game. I didn't expect that from a football fansite, but hat's off to everyone who hangs in. 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
Thanks for the honest, well-phrased question. To the first part, I think we are in way too deep in an ideological civil war and a large conservative segment believes their very way of life is threatened, and either sincerely or disingenuously they are willing to ignore all contradictory evidence and simply hang onto their gut feeling. There is also a pretty sophisticated industry out there giving these people alternative facts and talking points with just enough credence to feel they're having a legitimate debate with a legitimate ideological enemy. 

Once you've gone "fake news" you can believe whatever you want, cite whoever you want. Also, and hear me out....some of their gut feelings are valid. There's a Venn diagram where we all have a lot more in common than we've been led to believe. 

Now I'd like to say the facts are always on my side. But that's simply not true. Even if you go with the Archy Split:  84% Wrong/16% Right, you will have to face some pretty awkward wrongs. Liberals did plenty of trolling with claims and memes about Russia, COVID, Trump, the economy, etc., that didn't stand up to vetting or Snopes. Hunter Biden's laptop hardly absolves Trump, but it turns out it's really a thing.  Nancy Pelosi's husband getting a DUI shouldn't move the needle in any political discussion, but I don't see any restraint when an obscure GOP clown gets caught doing something stupid in public. Sometimes when I see blatant rightwing horses#!t, I bring it here specifically because it should embarrass our handful of rightwing defenders, and I want to see them defend it. Trolling? Maybe.

I don't know about "nicer" but I think it's more honest and to the point to accuse someone of being willfully dishonest rather than trolling. What makes this a really good P&R Forum is that most posters ask for and supply reasonably good source material, and admit when they're conflicted.  That may also be the reason why a lot of folks no longer post here. You kinda need to bring your A game. I didn't expect that from a football fansite, but hat's off to everyone who hangs in. 
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That’s a very good response, and I agree with it. However, my overarching point is, it’s a pretty fine hair to be splitting to differentiate between trolling or willfully dishonest or even woefully misinformed. I agree, much if it is due to fake news and bad sources but I don’t think anyone needs to defend them against claims of trolling. It’s still a “them” problem as reasonable people can’t control the information intake of others or how they parlay that into wild conspiracy theories. It’s an explanation for sure but it’s not absolution.

 
Bottom line: the people advancing what we consider willful and woeful misinformation make up half the population and are currently electing a majority of our representatives. I would rather engage them in broad daylight than chase them off. A P&R Forum free of Trump supporters* may sound sane and lovely, but at that point it's an echo chamber that lulls you into a false sense of the electorate. I honestly want to know how and what they think. 

As mentioned before, my view of the HuskerBoard P&R Threads is shaded by the fact that most online political forums are much, much, much worse. 

* At last count I have us down for zero posters openly willing to support the ex-Prez.

 
desertshox said:
Well you could always prove his numbers are wrong, continue making up your own numbers, or just let it go. I think the vast majority of people reading know they aren't actual numbers.
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I also think the vast majority of people reading know I am needling him and that they aren’t actual numbers  :dunno

Somewhat surprised you didn’t understand this 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
Bottom line: the people advancing what we consider willful and woeful misinformation make up half the population and are currently electing a majority of our representatives. I would rather engage them in broad daylight than chase them off. A P&R Forum free of Trump supporters* may sound sane and lovely, but at that point it's an echo chamber that lulls you into a false sense of the electorate. I honestly want to know how and what they think. 

As mentioned before, my view of the HuskerBoard P&R Threads is shaded by the fact that most online political forums are much, much, much worse. 

* At last count I have us down for zero posters openly willing to support the ex-Prez.
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I don’t want the Trumpers or MAGAs or irredeemably far righters run off either. I just wish they would hold themselves to a higher standard and could be reasoned with better. Heck not too many years ago I was considered on the far right of HB P&R. Just ask @knapplc or carlfense (who has been mia for a long while). I’ve moved ever so slightly left since then but a whole bunch of people have set new limits way to the right of me.

 
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JJ Husker said:
I don’t want the Trumpers or MAGAs or irredeemably far righters run off either. 
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I don't think any of us do, unless all they're exclusively offering is toxic disingenuous ragebait.

Trouble is, too many of them exist in the middle between that and being well-reasoned, and will eventually run off on their own due to A) victimhood complex, B) the Backfire Effect where they dig in to their ideology harder when presented with new ideas outside the right-wing rage ecosystem, C) being overwhelmed by an environment of actual criticism and attempts at critical thinking which they aren't used to. 

Archy survives because he can just so often enough take a high enough road and approach topics openly (same can be said for some more center and left posters, maybe even myself). Also probably because he likes the petty s#!t, which is also probably true of most of us.

 
JJ Husker said:
I don’t want the Trumpers or MAGAs or irredeemably far righters run off either. I just wish they would hold themselves to a higher standard and could be reasoned with better. Heck not too many years ago I was considered on the far right of HB P&R. Just ask @knapplc or carlfense (who has been mia for a long while). I’ve moved ever so slightly left since then but a whole bunch of people have set new limits way to the right of me.
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You and BRB both used to be the right-wingers. Heck, I was when I first joined, although I was already disillusioned with the Republican party.

I was also Super Christian and argued and argued and argued about religion for years. Weird.

Us "libs" who have never been Democrat and never will, we make up the left edge of this forum. That's pretty sad.

 
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