Tangent Thread - S&C Edition

[Mavric]

We've hauled in enough 4 star offensive linemen to put something decent together. The problem in my opinion was poor fundamentals coaching, a culture that was poor on motivation & competition, and then a lack of developing depth in the 2nd & 3rd deep to get guys ready for years 4 and 5.

I don't pretend to know all that goes into it.  Fundamentals and footwork almost have to be a part of it - if not most of it.  I also find it really odd that there seemed to be a significant disconnect between what Frost wanted and what Austin wanted to do.  That had to be a factor as well - perhaps a significant one.  If they're constantly getting pulled in different directions (no pun intended) or we keep changing things up, that's not a recipe for success.

I also can't rule out S&C issues.  But I tend to think those are overblown.  People have literally been complaining that we've had terrible S&C for nearly 20 years.  If that's true, the only thing we're worse at than hiring head coaches is hiring S&C people.  If it's that much of an issue, then the guys that transferred in from other programs should have been able to jump to the top really quickly.  Instead they barely played.  It seems to me that one of those things that is an easy target because it's hard to argue against.  But I'm not really sure that's a main problem.  Could contribute, though.

 

[Undone]

I also can't rule out S&C issues.  But I tend to think those are overblown.  People have literally been complaining that we've had terrible S&C for nearly 20 years.

Yeah I remember one of Darrion Daniels' first interviews after he had been on the team for a bit when he transferred in. I can't remember what the exact number was, but he said the squat weight that Duvall had him doing when he started lifting was "more weight than I'd ever had on my back."

Someone will say "strength training didn't matter in the Big 12." Meh.

We've been strong enough. You look at #54 out there and it's pretty obvious that some of these guys are flat out playing with a "deer in the headlights" thing going on. Not all of them, but some of them.

I think Corcoran is starting to really fill out and starting to live up to his recruiting hype from high school. And is that a surprise, that it would take that long? Nope, it's normal for linemen to not be ready until they're juniors.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

Yeah I remember one of Darrion Daniels' first interviews after he had been on the team for a bit when he transferred in. I can't remember what the exact number was, but he said that squat weight that Duvall had him doing when he started lifting was "more weight than I'd ever had on my back."

Someone will say "strength training didn't matter in the Big 12." Meh.

We've been strong enough. You look at #54 out there and it's pretty obvious that some of these guys are flat out playing with a "deer in the headlights" thing going on. Not all of them, but some of them.

I think Corcoran is starting to really fill out and starting to live up to his recruiting hype from high school. And is that a surprise, that it would take that long? Nope, it's normal for linemen to be ready until their juniors.

I have heard that Duvall’s weight training methods work well to lift a lot of weight in the weight room. However, it doesn’t always add up to functional strength which can be used on the football field. That’s been the main observations of Duval’s S&C philosophy. 

 

[Mavric]

Yeah I remember one of Darrion Daniels' first interviews after he had been on the team for a bit when he transferred in. I can't remember what the exact number was, but he said that squat weight that Duvall had him doing when he started lifting was "more weight than I'd ever had on my back."

Someone will say "strength training didn't matter in the Big 12." Meh.

We've been strong enough. You look at #54 out there and it's pretty obvious that some of these guys are flat out playing with a "deer in the headlights" thing going on. Not all of them, but some of them.

I think Corcoran is starting to really fill out and starting to live up to his recruiting hype from high school. And is that a surprise, that it would take that long? Nope, it's normal for linemen to be ready until their juniors.

Good point.  I'd forgotten about Daniels saying that.

I do think we struggled with S&C under Riley.  Getting hurt doesn't equate directly with S&C but there is definitely a relationship.  We were constantly having guys hobble off with injures during that time.  Not nearly as much now.  And I know most people like to frame Frost as worse than the devil but I do think he was right when he commented about that early in his tenure.  We were just too small, especially along the lines.  

Now, is it possible that we went too far the other way?  I'm sure that's possible.  But I think we're much closer to what we should be now than we were a few years ago.  

 

[Undone]

I have heard that Duvall’s weight training methods work well to lift a lot of weight in the weight room. However, it doesn’t always add up to functional strength which can be used on the football field. That’s been the main observations of Duval’s S&C philosophy. 

I can actually completely buy that, 'Husk. I really can.

Complete tangent: I remember a really interesting Joe Rogan podcast where he had an MMA strength & conditioning guy on his show. The guy trained some top fighters.

He didn't do any traditional weight training at all. He had some pretty unconventional methods of strengthening joints & muscle. And he told Joe "the only thing squatting does for you is get you better at squatting."

Anyway, kinda dovetails with what you're saying; it's definitely not just the weight you're pushing/pulling in the gym, the methods have to translate functionally.

 

[Mavric]

I can actually completely buy that, 'Husk. I really can.

Complete tangent: I remember a really interesting Joe Rogan podcast where he had an MMA strength & conditioning guy on his show. The guy trained some top fighters.

He didn't do any traditional weight training at all. He had some pretty unconventional methods of strengthening joints & muscle. And he told Joe "the only thing squatting does for you is get you better at squatting."

Anyway, kinda dovetails with what you're saying; it's definitely not just the weight you're pushing/pulling in the gym, the methods have to translate functionally.

I mean ... I'm not really sure that MMA training translates all that well into football training.  I'm not S&C expert but it seems pretty obvious that those are completely different skill, strength and agility sets.

I don't know how squats can't be considered one of the best things you can do for overall strength, especially for football and in particular on the lines.  It builds what are literally the biggest muscles in your body and what gets used the most for pushing and running.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

I can actually completely buy that, 'Husk. I really can.

Complete tangent: I remember a really interesting Joe Rogan podcast where he had an MMA strength & conditioning guy on his show. The guy trained some top fighters.

He didn't do any traditional weight training at all. He had some pretty unconventional methods of strengthening joints & muscle. And he told Joe "the only thing squatting does for you is get you better at squatting."

Anyway, kinda dovetails with what you're saying; it's definitely not just the weight you're pushing/pulling in the gym, the methods have to translate functionally.

One thing that I have consistently heard about NU’s talent is the lack of “fast twitch” players. I’m sure you are aware of what fast twitch means, but I do rarely see much of that from NU players. Fast twitch is not just straight ahead speed, it’s the quick burst which is needed in close spaces. The one player who stands out for NU is Hausmann. Once he makes a decision to move, it’s so quick and effective. That’s why he’s been able to jump ahead of so many other LB’s who have been recruited the past few years. That sudden burst and athleticism is something Hausmann has, and others don’t.  

 

[Undone]

I mean ... I'm not really sure that MMA training translates all that well into football training.  I'm not S&C expert but it seems pretty obvious that those are completely different skill, strength and agility sets.

I don't know how squats can't be considered one of the best things you can do for overall strength, especially for football and in particular on the lines.  It builds what are literally the biggest muscles in your body and what gets used the most for pushing and running.

I consider this to be the s***-posting thread of the forum now. Anything goes.   

I'm not sure how much MMA training translates to football either...but it is a sport where you push the other guy backwards, pick him up, & slam him on the ground. Sounds kind of like football, right?

Honestly it was just something 'Husk's post made me think of. I'll also say that I've seen Duvall's videos where guys are basically doing 1/4 squats. There's some benefit to this - I've read the research articles. But it's been pretty accepted over the long haul that you want to get that "stretch" of the full muscle fiber.

The other thing is that it's also conditioning. I can just say that I feel like we were very well conditioned in the Bo era in the 4th quarter. Now, not as much.

 

[Mavric]

I consider this to be the s***-posting thread of the forum now. Anything goes.   

I'm not sure how much MMA training translates to football either...but it is a sport where you push the other guy backwards, pick him up, & slam him on the ground. Sounds kind of like football, right?

That's part of what you need to do in MMA.  But you also have to be flexible enough to kick guys in the head.  So I could see wanting strength but less total mass because of the need for much more flexibility.

Honestly it was just something 'Husk's post made me think of. I'll also say that I've seen Duvall's videos where guys are basically doing 1/4 squats. There's some benefit to this - I've read the research articles. But it's been pretty accepted over the long haul that you want to get that "stretch" of the full muscle fiber.

The other thing is that it's also conditioning. I can just say that I feel like we were very well conditioned in the Bo era in the 4th quarter. Now, not as much.

Perhaps they do 1/4 squats sometimes but I'm not sure that's all the time.  I can't find videos he's posted that show the legs enough to really tell but from what you can see it seems like much more than 1/4 squats.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

The other thing is that it's also conditioning. I can just say that I feel like we were very well conditioned in the Bo era in the 4th quarter. Now, not as much.

Don’t confuse lack of conditioning with lack of depth. There may be both, but with lack of depth, there are fewer substititions which leads playing more snaps, which leads to fatigue and injuries.  Again, with most troubles with this program, it’s probably a combination of the two. 

 

[BigRedBuster]

Don’t confuse lack of conditioning with lack of depth. There may be both, but with lack of depth, there are fewer substititions which leads playing more snaps, which leads to fatigue and injuries.  Again, with most troubles with this program, it’s probably a combination of the two. 

Typically, there are very few substitutions on any team across the O line during a game unless there are injuries or one team is blowing out the other.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

Typically, there are very few substitutions on any team across the O line during a game unless there are injuries or one team is blowing out the other.

My comments aren’t just geared around o-line, they are across the offense and defense. However focusing on the o-line, there are teams which employ “swing offensive tackles” which can be used at both LT and RT to give guys breaks.  I believe Milt used a swing tackle at times during his time at NU. I’ve heard Rob Zatechka say that while he didn’t earn a starting tackle job early in his career, he was the swing tackle, so he was getting lot of game reps anyway. 

 

[Undone]

Don’t confuse lack of conditioning with lack of depth. There may be both, but with lack of depth, there are fewer substititions which leads playing more snaps, which leads to fatigue and injuries.  Again, with most troubles with this program, it’s probably a combination of the two. 

Well no, when I mentioned "developing depth" I wasn't referring to in-game strategy. I was referring to having guys ready to be starters in years 4 & 5 that were ready to perform well.

 

[ColoradoHusk]

Well no, when I mentioned "developing depth" I wasn't referring to in-game strategy. I was referring to having guys ready to be starters in years 4 & 5 that were ready to perform well.

Fair enough, my misunderstanding then. But those guys also must be able to step in when needed, as young players, especially in the era of 85 scholarships. 

 

[SouthLincoln Husker]

There is just a lot wrong with our line: recruiting, S&C, coaching technic, scheme, no competition or depth.