Why would Israel attack Iran?

[knapplc]

Here's yet another example of Arabs breaking a ceasefire with Israel:

Well that didn’t last long, did it. The Hamas-declared ceasefire lasted for the whole of Monday. Yesterday, as Israel’s troops tactfully departed Gaza so as not to rain on Obama’s parade gunmen in Gaza fired at IDF patrols in two separate incidents. Today, Ha’aretz reports:

The Israel Air Force on Tuesday attacked areas in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians fired mortar shells. The Israel Defense Forces said that about eight mortar shells were shot from near a central Gaza refugee camp, apparently by Hamas. Two of the shells landed in the Strip and the rest fell in open territory in the western Negev near the border. ... The Palestinians also fired light weapons into Israel on Tuesday, from both north and south of the Kissufim crossing. An explosive charge was also apparently set off.
Meanwhile, Jordan’s Petra news agency has reported that Hamas hijacked Jordanian aid trucks bound for UNRWA after they crossed into Gaza through the Kerem Shalom crossing yesterday. As the aid was unloaded, Hamas gunmen opened fire on them and forced the drivers to go to Hamas-run stores. And Ha’aretz reports:

The liaison office for civilian territories, meanwhile, said Hamas is intentionally harming humanitarian aid transferred from Israel by firing mortars at the Karni, Kissufim and Kerem Shalom crossings. The liaison office and Shin Bet security service both accused Hamas of looting trucks bringing supplies into Gaza. The Shin Bet also reported many instances since the cease-fire of Hamas members shooting and wounding Fatah activists in Gaza.

LINK

Now, I'm not putting links here to Israeli-broken ceasefires. I'm giving it as accepted that Israel has done this. The point of contention seems to be that Hamas/the Arabs have never done this. I'm simply showing that, as I've said all along, there is blame enough for both parties in this conflict, and neither side is to be looked at as "right" or "wrong."

 

[knapplc]

Yet more attacks by Hamas on Israel. Prompted by Israeli activity? Probably. Retaliation for something, which the Israelis were in turn retaliating for, etc etc etc....

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2011

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2007

The lists go on and on.

Again, there are numerous examples of Israel also breaking truces, breaking ceasefires, etc. But it has never been my contention that Israel has not. I have maintained throughout that both sides are in the wrong.

 

[Sub-Husker]

Yet more attacks by Hamas on Israel. Prompted by Israeli activity? Probably. Retaliation for something, which the Israelis were in turn retaliating for, etc etc etc....

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2011

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2010

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2009

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008

List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2007

The lists go on and on.

Again, there are numerous examples of Israel also breaking truces, breaking ceasefires, etc. But it has never been my contention that Israel has not. I have maintained throughout that both sides are in the wrong.

LMAO...

The Israelis do everything they can to destroy the Palestinian police, then complain that they are not policing rogue elements and more fanatical groups well enough.

 

[Sub-Husker]

Anti-Semitism. That's my guess.

That was a disgusting low blow, you OWE him an apology.

I will keep my current signature, until an apology is posted.

It is an accusation with zero evidence to back it up, but so was his post.

 

[Sub-Husker]

So your contention is that if Israel would leave the occupied territories the acts of terrorism targeting women and children would stop?

I would contend that if there was a chance that Israel would withdraw in line with a fair treaty, that Hamas would stop all attacks.

Once it was able to adequately police its own terratory, attacks from other groups would stop.

 

[knapplc]

Anti-Semitism. That's my guess.

That was a disgusting low blow, you OWE him an apology.

I will keep my current signature, until an apology is posted.

It is an accusation with zero evidence to back it up, but so was his post.

No, you won't. It's been removed.

And to be fair, here's my apology:

Cactus, I apologize for the insinuation that your motive in this thread is based on anti-Semitism. I have friends who work with the ADL, and they deal with such denial frequently. I have seen things like this in the past, and from personal experience anti-Semitism is a factor. I have no proof that your stance here is based on anti-Semitism, so I apologize and retract the statement.

 

[Sub-Husker]

Cactus, I apologize for the insinuation that your motive in this thread is based on anti-Semitism. I have friends who work with the ADL, and they deal with such denial frequently. I have seen things like this in the past, and from personal experience anti-Semitism is a factor. I have no proof that your stance here is based on anti-Semitism, so I apologize and retract the statement.

Thank you.

It takes a big person to state that, which justifiably came as a result of real life experiences.

Just to be clear, the Palestinians are also a Semetic people. And Cactus' criticisms were of the Israeli government, not the Israeli people.

 

[knapplc]

Well aware of all of that. Thanks.

 

[johnnyrodgers20]

So.... I say let's go, and you back off, saying I'm in over my head?

WTF?

Let's do this. Let's look at the times the truce has been broken, and let's see.

It looks like you've been called and instead of showing your cards you've folded. Don't fold. Let's play the hand.

Telling me to go look up and make a list of the last 25 was ridiculous.

June 19, 2008 ceasefire

Palestinian Center for Human Rights recorded several IDF violations in the early days of the lull: On 19 June 2008, just a few hours after the beginning of the ceasefire Israeli forces opened fire against fishermen and farmers in Gaza.[15] Also on 23 June, Israeli forces opened fire against children and farmers in northern Gaza Strip, wounding one of the farmers, Jameel 'Abdul Rahman al-Ghoul, 68, in the neck. And on 25 June, Israeli forces opened fire against farmers in southeastern Gaza Strip, inuring Salem Ahmed Abu Raida, 82, in the hand.[16]

http://en.wikipedia....Hamas_ceasefire

Palestinian center for human rights, hmm, I wonder how impartial they are, hmm? eyeswear2allthatsholy

 

[johnnyrodgers20]

So your contention is that if Israel would leave the occupied territories the acts of terrorism targeting women and children would stop?

I would contend that if there was a chance that Israel would withdraw in line with a fair treaty, that Hamas would stop all attacks.

Once it was able to adequately police its own terratory, attacks from other groups would stop.

I find your optimism a little naive. While any scenario is going to be scrutinized my feeling is that it (the peace) will last only for a short time. There will be debate as to who breaks the peace but I don't think there will ever be peace in my lifetime. :dunno

 

[knapplc]

I find your optimism a little naive. While any scenario is going to be scrutinized my feeling is that it (the peace) will last only for a short time. There will be debate as to who breaks the peace but I don't think there will ever be peace in my lifetime. :dunno

Exactly. This has been shown to be true time after time after time after time. And it's not just one side doing it - it's both sides, like two bears constantly poking each other with sticks. It's naive to think that if one side stopped, the other side would suddenly stop, too.

 

[Sub-Husker]

So your contention is that if Israel would leave the occupied territories the acts of terrorism targeting women and children would stop?

I would contend that if there was a chance that Israel would withdraw in line with a fair treaty, that Hamas would stop all attacks.

Once it was able to adequately police its own terratory, attacks from other groups would stop.

I find your optimism a little naive. While any scenario is going to be scrutinized my feeling is that it (the peace) will last only for a short time. There will be debate as to who breaks the peace but I don't think there will ever be peace in my lifetime.

Maybe so, but the current policy of Israeli occupation and heavy handed responses has been proven for decades not to work.

Exactly. This has been shown to be true time after time after time after time. And it's not just one side doing it - it's both sides, like two bears constantly poking each other with sticks. It's naive to think that if one side stopped, the other side would suddenly stop, too.

Wrong.

It has never been shon to be untrue, because nothing like it has been tried.

Read what I said (we're back to this), and tell me where/when it had been tried.

 

[knapplc]

I'm referring to the myriad truces and ceasefires that have been tried, and all have failed.

I suppose, conversely, I could ask you what evidence you have that would support the contention that a true peace would be possible, Sub. That may be an easier target for us to hit.

I would love for your point to be true. I don't think anyone here in this message board has any desire for war over there. Peace in the Middle East would be the goal of everyone involved in this conversation, I believe. I just don't think it's possible.

 

[Cactusboy]

From the start of the ceasefire at 6 AM on June 19 till the incident on November 4th cited by CNN, the following attacks were launched against Israel from Gaza in direct violation of the agreement:

• 18 mortars were fired at Israel in this period, beginning on the night of June 23.
  
• 20 rockets were fired, beginning on June 24, when 3 rockets hit the Israeli town of Sderot.
  
• On July 6 farmers working in the fields of Nahal Oz were attacked by light arms fire from Gaza.
  
• On the night of August 15 Palestinians fired across the border at Israeli soldiers near the Karni crossing.
  
• On October 31 an IDF patrol spotted Palestinians planting an explosive device near the security fence in the area of the Sufa crossing. As the patrol approached the fence the Palestinians fired two anti-tank missiles.
  

There were two Palestinian attempts to infiltrate from Gaza into Israel apparently to abduct Israelis. Both were major violations of the ceasefire.

LINK

Here's some more timely information on who broke the 2008 ceasefire and when.

AGAIN...you are moving the gold posts. Israel broke the ceasefire hours after it started. If we have a staring contest and I blink first...I don't then point out that you blinked 5 seconds later.

NOW...if a cease fire it broken..and then the other side hits back, there can be a sort of restart of the ceasefire. But it's still on record who broke it first.

Willful ignorance is BIG TIME on your side. You're using all sorts of desparte debating tactics in this thread.

No need to appologize for your guess about me. It has zero substance and you can't deny this fact. I also think you need to look up the offical def of the term you throw around.

This is an account of when the ceasefire was broken in 2008 (just after it started, by rockets fired on June 23rd). Now, if you have some evidence that Israel did something prior to this, by all means, share it. Do you know, and I mean really know, without doubt, that the Israelis fired first? Or are you simply basing your point on a Wikipedia page, one that cites a biased source? You declaim the American news outlets for being biased - yet the "hours after it started" article was lifted from The Palestinian Information Center. Hardly unbiased.

What I posted is not a "desparte debating tactic," it is a series of facts. We're not engaged in a staring contest, we're engaged in a conversation about facts. If you would like to discuss facts, then let's do so.

AHHHHH...you make a valid point!! Let's research those shooting they claim happened...maybe it'lls how up from another source, or at least see if Israel talks about them anywhere.

 

[knapplc]

Are you subjecting your Wiki page to the same vetting? That would only be fair. If we're going to quibble this much over sources, all sources must be put to equal tests.

Or we could step back from the minutiae of this conversation and take it for granted that both sides, Israeli and Arab, have violated the peace. Numerous times. That's the olive branch I've held out to you from the beginning. It's still there.