If a Christian commits suicide, does he/she make it to heaven?

[HuskerShark]

I think people who live outside of cities tend to be simpler people (i.e. farmers), and people who lead simpler lives tend to be pretty religious. Not meant to be insulting, of course, but in my experience, this is what I've seen. People in small towns/farmers tend to be simpler and more religious.

Then again, you have to consider population parameters. Far more people live in a square mile of a city than they do in a small town/farm. So, naturally, more people means more opportunities for differences. It'd be like comparing an ant hill to a litter of kittens and diagnosing social norms. The variables are vastly different.

This is kind of the point I was trying to make. Farmers and people who live in rural areas (I grew up on a small farm, so I can attest to this) can see the beauty of the world and IMO that helps reinforce the existence of God. When you grow up and/or live in a city, you are surrounded by nothing but streets and buildings, and that makes it harder to see the beauty that (I believe) God made.

 

[bennychico11]

It's not assumptions. Speaking for myself, I can say that what I believe about God is mostly from what has been taught to me, and the things in this world that I see reinforce those beliefs. Things that I don't necessarily think fit together, I usually cast away. Like the whole fate issue. A lot of Christians believe in fate, but I think that is kind of a ridiculous notion to believe that everything that we do is planned out for us. That takes away the significance of life.

But getting to the point I am trying to make, I was reading a book just today that was talking about 98% (I think) of America's population living on 2% of the land in the US and how people being packed that closely together brings out the worst in people. I've seen this first-hand so many times. Not only does being trapped in a city bring out the worst in people, I think that people who live in cities are far less likely to be Christian--or any religion for that matter--because they have never truly been out of the city and seen the beauty that the world holds. Maybe that scenario fits you. I don't know anything about you, so I don't mean it to come off as an insult or something like that. I'm just spit-ballin' in my buzzed state right now.

lol, no insult taken. I guess you could be right...since I'm not Christian at all, maybe me living in a city has something to do with it. I don't know. Although, maybe people in cities are less religious only because they actually get to experience more. I'd like to venture that people from larger cities actually travel more and see MORE what this world has to offer. My wife and much of her family, for example, are from a very small town in Missouri (they aren't large enough to even have a Pizza Hut set up business in town...so a Pizza Hut wagon comes once a week to make pizzas for customers!). And much of them hardly ever leave the town. Sure they may be in the country side and get to see nature all day long, but remaining in your small bubble in the country isn't any different than someone living in a small bubble within a city. People in the city are typically more culturally diverse (food, socially, religiously, etc). But an argument could be made for either case, I guess.

Back to my whole point above...I was just saying that it's one thing to make a god claim. But then to assert that he's beyond our space and time...? How would you know how one operates beyond space and time? And then to give this detailed explanation of exactly how he actually operates his plane of existence beyond our own. I can't tell you how the President of this country spends his day...let alone make assertions about how a god works.

 

[robsker]

If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice.

Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us?

There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices?

If a being knows the 'choice' you will make, there is no choice, just an illusion of it. Free will can not truly exist if the outcome is already known. There is either complete free will where no being knows for sure the outcome, or everything is on rails and we are offered only the illusion of a choice.

Says the human within the confines of space and time - who are you to say what a being outside of it can or cannot do and how it affects us?

There is a mistake in thinking that God is progressing along a timeline like we are when He is not. This viewpoint leads to the idea that He is "seeing ahead". If that were true, then yeah, it would destroy the concept of free-will. But he doesn't foresee anything, He just sees. He views the future in the same way that he sees the future in the same way that he views the past. Every day, moment and history is "now" to God, if such a time-dependent statement can be made. God does not remember you doing things yesterday, He just sees it; similarly, He does not foresee you doing things tomorrow, He only sees it. If I watch you go throughout the day on hidden camera, as it is happening live, do you cry foul that you have no free will in your choices?

What inclines anyone to think that there is free will?

 

[The Maudfather]

I agree that people in rural areas are generally more simple and religious, whereas people in more populated areas are much more open minded. I have lived on both sides of the spectrum. Most recently, in a town with a single gas station where the average graduation class is a little over 20 kids.

Back to my question that hasn't received an answer though, if a Christian drinks a liter of hemlock and just so happens to die, does he/she make it to heaven?

 

[robsker]

I agree that people in rural areas are generally more simple and religious, whereas people in more populated areas are much more open minded. I have lived on both sides of the spectrum. Most recently, in a town with a single gas station where the average graduation class is a little over 20 kids.

Back to my question that hasn't received an answer though, if a Christian drinks a liter of hemlock and just so happens to die, does he/she make it to heaven?

I agree that people in rural areas are generally more simple and religious, whereas people in more populated areas are much more open minded. I have lived on both sides of the spectrum. Most recently, in a town with a single gas station where the average graduation class is a little over 20 kids.

Back to my question that hasn't received an answer though, if a Christian drinks a liter of hemlock and just so happens to die, does he/she make it to heaven?

Interesting....

Open mindedness describes a path or process at arriving at a position. It speaks nothing regarding the position adopted. An open-minded approach is one that evaluates the objective, data-driven assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of position A vs. position B --- and does so w/o bringing in a predetermined subjective bias within that process. Such an open-minded approach can lead to position A or position B.

To say --- as you infer --- that the religious (position A) are not open-minded because they are religious and that those who are not (position b) are open minded because they hold a non-religious position is... well... ridiculous.

A person can be religious and be sensationally open minded having had studied thousands of hours on every aspect of objective data to arrive at that position. And one can be closed minded and arrive at the same position. Same with the non-religious stance --- one can get there objectively and with an open mind... or via a closed-minded non-thinking subjectivism.

You paint a wildly broad brush regarding rural vs. non-rural people and you use terms you do not seem to understand.

As to your question --- no objective answer can be given as far as I can tell. We simply do not have access to that answer. Opinions may abound... but that is all you will have is opinion --- and that is not worth much.

 

[The Maudfather]

I agree that people in rural areas are generally more simple and religious, whereas people in more populated areas are much more open minded. I have lived on both sides of the spectrum. Most recently, in a town with a single gas station where the average graduation class is a little over 20 kids.

Back to my question that hasn't received an answer though, if a Christian drinks a liter of hemlock and just so happens to die, does he/she make it to heaven?

I agree that people in rural areas are generally more simple and religious, whereas people in more populated areas are much more open minded. I have lived on both sides of the spectrum. Most recently, in a town with a single gas station where the average graduation class is a little over 20 kids.

Back to my question that hasn't received an answer though, if a Christian drinks a liter of hemlock and just so happens to die, does he/she make it to heaven?

Interesting....

Open mindedness describes a path or process at arriving at a position. It speaks nothing regarding the position adopted. An open-minded approach is one that evaluates the objective, data-driven assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of position A vs. position B --- and does so w/o bringing in a predetermined subjective bias within that process. Such an open-minded approach can lead to position A or position B.

To say --- as you infer --- that the religious (position A) are not open-minded because they are religious and that those who are not (position b) are open minded because they hold a non-religious position is... well... ridiculous.

A person can be religious and be sensationally open minded having had studied thousands of hours on every aspect of objective data to arrive at that position. And one can be closed minded and arrive at the same position. Same with the non-religious stance --- one can get there objectively and with an open mind... or via a closed-minded non-thinking subjectivism.

You paint a wildly broad brush regarding rural vs. non-rural people and you use terms you do not seem to understand.

As to your question --- no objective answer can be given as far as I can tell. We simply do not have access to that answer. Opinions may abound... but that is all you will have is opinion --- and that is not worth much.

I understand the term just fine. I was speaking in generalities as a direct result of my personal experiences. Am I saying that every single person in a town of 600 people is incapable of open mindedness and critical thinking? Absolutely not. That would be terribly smug of me.

 

[knapplc]

They can correct me if I'm saying this wrong, but I'm pretty sure theistic views dictate God does not travel on the same timeline as humans.

Blonde-haired, Blue-eyed White Jesus operates on Central Time, man. Don't you know nothin'?

 

[Enhance]

I don't see any problem with the generalities concerning rural people and city people. In my experience, having a lot of family from rural areas but being born/lived in a city, people in rural areas tend to be a lot more close-minded and more religious.

I don't think anyone is saying this is the case in all rural areas nor that this is some unquestionable fact. It's merely a personal observation that I have no problem being contradicted on because, obviously, not everybody has my same experiences.

 

[The Maudfather]

I don't see any problem with the generalities concerning rural people and city people. In my experience, having a lot of family from rural areas but being born/lived in a city, people in rural areas tend to be a lot more close-minded and more religious.

I don't think anyone is saying this is the case in all rural areas nor that this is some unquestionable fact. It's merely a personal observation that I have no problem being contradicted on because, obviously, not everybody has my same experiences.

This guy gets it.

 

[robsker]

I don't see any problem with the generalities concerning rural people and city people. In my experience, having a lot of family from rural areas but being born/lived in a city, people in rural areas tend to be a lot more close-minded and more religious.

I don't think anyone is saying this is the case in all rural areas nor that this is some unquestionable fact. It's merely a personal observation that I have no problem being contradicted on because, obviously, not everybody has my same experiences.

I don't see any problem with the generalities concerning rural people and city people. In my experience, having a lot of family from rural areas but being born/lived in a city, people in rural areas tend to be a lot more close-minded and more religious.

I don't think anyone is saying this is the case in all rural areas nor that this is some unquestionable fact. It's merely a personal observation that I have no problem being contradicted on because, obviously, not everybody has my same experiences.

Do you equate being close minded with being religious and open minded with being non-religious? If so, consider that you are conflating the two concepts... the position held is independent of the path taken.... and connected only if you know the detailed process that led a person to their position.

My point is that evaluating the position held by people and perhaps even generalizing the proclivity to hold a given position as a function of population density is something one can do with some reliability (in an anecdotal sense) --- but discerning how open- or closed-minded a person is is very difficult to discern --- because the position held by an individual says absolutely nothing about how they arrived there.

 

[MLB 51]

They can correct me if I'm saying this wrong, but I'm pretty sure theistic views dictate God does not travel on the same timeline as humans.

Yes. 1000 years to us is a day to God. As to the question of suicide. I believe there is something in bible that states, at the end of time all will have a chance to repent and saved. I would believe this would include all those who either haven't had the chance to ask for forgiveness for their sins. Also, thereis only one unforgiveable sin. At that is to deny God in the final hour.

 

[Enhance]

Do you equate being close minded with being religious and open minded with being non-religious? If so, consider that you are conflating the two concepts... the position held is independent of the path taken.... and connected only if you know the detailed process that led a person to their position.

My point is that evaluating the position held by people and perhaps even generalizing the proclivity to hold a given position as a function of population density is something one can do with some reliability (in an anecdotal sense) --- but discerning how open- or closed-minded a person is is very difficult to discern --- because the position held by an individual says absolutely nothing about how they arrived there.

You love the double quotes, don't ya? lol

I know a lot of intelligent people who are religious, and idiots who are religious. In conjunction, I know a lot of intelligent people who aren't religious, and a lot of idiots who aren't religious. As I said, I did not say this is some unquestionable fact - it is merely an observation.

I have a lot of family that lives in rural areas, specifically on the western Nebraska and eastern Colorado border. I've had a number talks with them and people in their towns, picked their brains on various topics and listened to them support their opinions. I would consider most of the people a) close-minded and b) very religious. I would, in fact, say I understand with some certainty how they arrived at those positions. It's difficult to not be close minded when you don't have the internet, don't have a television, barely listen to the radio, talk to the same people every single day your entire life and only read the few materials you have available to you. As another poster said, a lot of these people live in bubbles their entire lives. It's difficult to branch out when this is your environment.

So, again, my point is not that this is universal, just that this is what I've seen. The thing about generalizations/stereotypes is that they often have a bit of truth to them, even if that truth is uncomfortable for people to accept. I'm not throwing around these words willy-nilly. I have first hand experience talking to these people and figuring out how they arrived at their positions.

 

[robsker]

enhance... I am glad we are doing this.

my point really has little to do with geographic/demographic generalisms between rural and urban. More to the point for me is to forward for peoples consideration that whether a person is religious or not says nothing about whether they are open minded or not. I also contend that ones intelligence or lack thereof (capacity to learn, IQ, etc.) is not related overly to the use of wisdom (open- vs. close-minded approach) in seeking after abstract truth. There are many logical, data-driven objective and complete thinkers who, the moment the assessment of God or theology crops up instantly think in a manner that is wildly counter to their thinking in every other realm --- and they become entirely subjective, and allow "my feelings" and "my experiences" and "my imagination" to govern my thinking on things religious. The very thing they would not do in ant realm of decision making is what they do on things religious.

So... religious or not religious --- these are positions taken by everyone --- and where one resides positionally says nothing about their approach (open- or closed-minded) or their intellect (intelligent or, as you say, idiotic). That is my point for everyones consideration.

 

[Muck]

For the Christians on the board, this is something I've never received a real definitive answer about. If so, why don't Christians just kill themselves, so they can be with God?

What type of Christian are we talking about? They come in more than one flavor you know.

 

[knapplc]

For the Christians on the board, this is something I've never received a real definitive answer about. If so, why don't Christians just kill themselves, so they can be with God?

What type of Christian are we talking about? They come in more than one flavor you know.

It's an equal-opportunity question. Each person can answer for their own flavor.