If a Christian commits suicide, does he/she make it to heaven?

Po Belini said:
Wow. I bet you think the people who mourn for them are pussies also. Which would mean my ENTIRE high school were a bunch of pussies on four separate occassions when I was in high school. And all the football players were pussies when they cried for one of their teammates who killed himself. And the 600 people who skipped school to attend the funeral were all pussies too, right? Please don't make such comments when you don't know who on this board suicide has affected.

And if this was sarcasm, which I hope it is, disregard the rant
Click to expand...
I can't believe that post actually needs a sign. Of course it's sarcasm. It's directed at the "suicide is succumbing to weakness" nonsense that's been posted in a few different forms in this thread, beginning just a few posts into the thread.

Sorry for the confusion, but given my first post in this thread, I didn't really think that it was necessary. I'll fix it.

 
bhamHusker said:
Po Belini said:
Wow. I bet you think the people who mourn for them are pussies also. Which would mean my ENTIRE high school were a bunch of pussies on four separate occassions when I was in high school. And all the football players were pussies when they cried for one of their teammates who killed himself. And the 600 people who skipped school to attend the funeral were all pussies too, right? Please don't make such comments when you don't know who on this board suicide has affected.

And if this was sarcasm, which I hope it is, disregard the rant
Click to expand...
I can't believe that post actually needs a sign. Of course it's sarcasm. It's directed at the "suicide is succumbing to weakness" nonsense that's been posted in a few different forms in this thread, beginning just a few posts into the thread.

Sorry for the confusion, but given my first post in this thread, I didn't really think that it was necessary. I'll fix it.
Click to expand...
You never know on this board :)

 
The samurai performed seppuku if they failed to uphold their honor. Seppuku was basically a ritualized suicide. It's why I don't think suicide really matters in terms of where you'll go in the afterlife. There are so many varying religions, opinions and historical ideals regarding the after life. Far too many to say one is right over the other.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Enhance89 said:
The samurai performed seppuku if they failed to uphold their honor. Seppuku was basically a ritualized suicide. It's why I don't think suicide really matters in terms of where you'll go in the afterlife. There are so many varying religions, opinions and historical ideals regarding the after life. Far too many to say one is right over the other.
Click to expand...
Unless of course, one is right over the other. That would only be the most important thing in the entire universe to be aware of, but let's take it casually :)

 
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
Enhance89 said:
The samurai performed seppuku if they failed to uphold their honor. Seppuku was basically a ritualized suicide. It's why I don't think suicide really matters in terms of where you'll go in the afterlife. There are so many varying religions, opinions and historical ideals regarding the after life. Far too many to say one is right over the other.
Click to expand...
Unless of course, one is right over the other. That would only be the most important thing in the entire universe to be aware of, but let's take it casually :)
Click to expand...
But the fallacy with this is that every single religion is unprovable and thus impossible to debate. You have no way of saying one is right over the other any more than I do.

Christianity is one of the youngest religions in human history, yet, people believe it to be true. Rewind 3,000 years and nobody believed in the Christian God. Greeks, for example, believed in many Gods responsible for the way life was. Of course, Zeus tended to be the ruler of all these Gods, but there were still multiple Gods capable of influencing humans. Now, nobody believes in these Gods.

The overwhelming point is that because these things are unprovable, it's completely ridiculous to even claim the possibility that one is right over the other. I can't say the Christian idea is wrong any more than my idea, or Bhuddist ideas, or Islamic idea, or Greek ideas, etc, are wrong.

Put us all in ancient Greece and we'd all be tried for treason and murdered because of our theological views. Yet, here some of us sit saying they're wrong and we're right? It's stupid.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Enhance89 said:
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
Enhance89 said:
The samurai performed seppuku if they failed to uphold their honor. Seppuku was basically a ritualized suicide. It's why I don't think suicide really matters in terms of where you'll go in the afterlife. There are so many varying religions, opinions and historical ideals regarding the after life. Far too many to say one is right over the other.
Click to expand...
Unless of course, one is right over the other. That would only be the most important thing in the entire universe to be aware of, but let's take it casually :)
Click to expand...
But the fallacy with this is that every single religion is unprovable and thus impossible to debate. You have no way of saying one is right over the other any more than I do.

Christianity is one of the youngest religions in human history, yet, people believe it to be true. Rewind 3,000 years and nobody believed in the Christian God. Greeks, for example, believed in many Gods responsible for the way life was. Of course, Zeus tended to be the ruler of all these Gods, but there were still multiple Gods capable of influencing humans. Now, nobody believes in these Gods.

The overwhelming point is that because these things are unprovable, it's completely ridiculous to even claim the possibility that one is right over the other. I can't say the Christian idea is wrong any more than my idea, or Bhuddist ideas, or Islamic idea, or Greek ideas, etc, are wrong.

Put us all in ancient Greece and we'd all be tried for treason and murdered because of our theological views. Yet, here some of us sit saying they're wrong and we're right? It's stupid.
Click to expand...

I see the point you are making. However, it's not ridiculous to claim the possibility of one over the other. If there is a God, if there is a specific world view that has implications on the after life, if we are called to live one certain way that is right, then we shouldn't dismiss the possibility of that simply on the basis of a bad argument.

 
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
I see the point you are making. However, it's not ridiculous to claim the possibility of one over the other. If there is a God, if there is a specific world view that has implications on the after life, if we are called to live one certain way that is right, then we shouldn't dismiss the possibility of that simply on the basis of a bad argument.
Click to expand...
I don't see why we can't. Dismissing a bad argument seems like an extremely logical thing, no? Why let a bad argument persist? It's like a pimple - it doesn't do anything but annoy the living hell out of you.

I bolded some choice words because they illustrate my issue. Religion is based on belief and (essentially) the purpose of making somebody feel better about their lives. No one wants to believe there's nothing after we die, because a lot of people get depressed by that and want to have meaning in life. To fill this void, people turn to religion. Again, however - the idea that one is better than the other (which is purely bigotry) is a problem. It's a shroud of doubt.

Then, when you apply religion to suicide, it's interesting to note that every religion has a different take on it. In reality, no human life is better or more worthy than another life. So, how is it then that some religions see suicide as a good thing in certain circumstances? What makes them wrong and you right, or you wrong and them right? Nothing. So, we fall back on the "possibility?" It's a reasonable solution, but only if you accept the possibility that anything is possible. If you can accept the possibility of God in the same way that you can accept the possibility there isn't a God, then there really isn't an issue.

The problem, however, is that most theists can't/won't accept the possibility the God they believe in doesn't exist. An obvious counter is whether or not I can accept the same possibility of there being a God as there not being a God. For me, the answer is easily yes, because I believe in "God", just not the religious interpretations of him. At the same time, I can easily accept there isn't one.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Enhance89 said:
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
I see the point you are making. However, it's not ridiculous to claim the possibility of one over the other. If there is a God, if there is a specific world view that has implications on the after life, if we are called to live one certain way that is right, then we shouldn't dismiss the possibility of that simply on the basis of a bad argument.
Click to expand...
I don't see why we can't. Dismissing a bad argument seems like an extremely logical thing, no? Why let a bad argument persist? It's like a pimple - it doesn't do anything but annoy the living hell out of you.

I bolded some choice words because they illustrate my issue. Religion is based on belief and (essentially) the purpose of making somebody feel better about their lives. No one wants to believe there's nothing after we die, because a lot of people get depressed by that and want to have meaning in life. To fill this void, people turn to religion. Again, however - the idea that one is better than the other (which is purely bigotry) is a problem. It's a shroud of doubt.

Then, when you apply religion to suicide, it's interesting to note that every religion has a different take on it. In reality, no human life is better or more worthy than another life. So, how is it then that some religions see suicide as a good thing in certain circumstances? What makes them wrong and you right, or you wrong and them right? Nothing. So, we fall back on the "possibility?" It's a reasonable solution, but only if you accept the possibility that anything is possible. If you can accept the possibility of God in the same way that you can accept the possibility there isn't a God, then there really isn't an issue.

The problem, however, is that most theists can't/won't accept the possibility the God they believe in doesn't exist. An obvious counter is whether or not I can accept the same possibility of there being a God as there not being a God. For me, the answer is easily yes, because I believe in "God", just not the religious interpretations of him. At the same time, I can easily accept there isn't one.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for other people in my camp, but I can accept the possibility. If ever there was conclusive proof that God did not exist, or that a different God than the one of the Bible did exist, I would renounce my faith. Furthermore, if it was proven that Christ did not resurrect from the dead, I also would renounce my faith.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."

 
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
I can't speak for other people in my camp, but I can accept the possibility. If ever there was conclusive proof that God did not exist, or that a different God than the one of the Bible did exist, I would renounce my faith. Furthermore, if it was proven that Christ did not resurrect from the dead, I also would renounce my faith.

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."
Click to expand...
It's those possibilities that lead me to think suicide is, for the most, completely irrelevant. With so many of these possibilities out there, none having any real validity over the other outside of belief, it seems most logical to assume it doesn't matter. Because I'm in the same boat as you - I would renounce my world views if there was conclusive proof that a version of God did, or didn't, exist. But because we don't have this proof, I take what I think is the middle-road, neither fully believing nor fully disbelieving. I think it allows me to be a little more objective than a theist or an atheist, which I would think are the two extremes in religious debate.

One thing I've always been somewhat interested is the correlation between homicide and suicide. It reasons to think any death outside of natural causes is bad. So, if we all have souls, what taints it more - suicide or homicide? One is ending your own life, the other is ending the life of another. But, you're theoretically removing the exact same variable from the equation, if you think all men are equal. Therefore, let's say a man murders another for reason X. The murderer is sentenced to life in jail, and in that time becomes a man of devout faith in Christ. Would any theists think this man is capable of being 'saved?' If he can, why can't the suicide be saved? Like I said, both are essentially the same variable, yet people would argue doing one is a lot worse than the other.

 
Landlord of Memorial Stadium said:
Enhance89 said:
The samurai performed seppuku if they failed to uphold their honor. Seppuku was basically a ritualized suicide. It's why I don't think suicide really matters in terms of where you'll go in the afterlife. There are so many varying religions, opinions and historical ideals regarding the after life. Far too many to say one is right over the other.
Click to expand...
Unless of course, one is right over the other. That would only be the most important thing in the entire universe to be aware of, but let's take it casually :)
Click to expand...
Thank you Landlord. First thing that I read all day that made me laugh out loud.

 
Back
Top