Adrian Martinez

admo said:
A system quarterback is a marginal player.  He relies on the talent around him, for the team to be successful. 
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I guess per what the actual term is, I define a system player as someone who relies on the system around him to be successful, not the talent around him.

Isn't the whole point of the concept of a system player that the system is designed to make up for the deficiencies in talent?

Crouch didn't rely on the talent around him to be successful, but the system was absolutely 100% a major factor in him being successful. He wouldn't have started or even played as a quarterback at Miami or Florida.

 
admo said:
A system quarterback is a marginal player.  He relies on the talent around him, for the team to be successful.  He has limited skills and is replaceable.  The next QB will do fine too, as long as there is really good talent on the team.  

The second video is literally saying Crouch didn't have many options around him.  It was run, pass, scramble, make a play.  And he was extraordinary, like most great quarterbacks.
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As mentioned, Patrick Mahomes was a system quarterback. His system gave him inflated passing numbers, which discounted him for the Heisman but worked well enough in the NFL system, although plenty of other college air-raid QBs flamed out in their pro careers. There are only two "systems" people seem to talk about in college: dual threat option and pocket passing air raid.

Some have argued that every Alabama QB is a system QB in that they only had to be efficient because everything around them was so good. Definitely some truth to that, but I wouldn't call those players "marginal" or easily replaceable. Actually not sure I understand your definition of system QB. You seem to be talking about mediocre QBs who still win games because the team is good. I don't think those teams go out scouting for mediocre QBs. 

 
admo said:
It's ok, I know.  The year was 2001.  We were on 56K modems at the time.  And yes, if they had a shotgun read pass option as the norm back then, he would have excelled.  Just imagine if he had Rex Burkhead, Roy Helu and Ameer Abdullah (like Taylor Martinez did) running the RPO.  Or having Jordan Westerkamp and Brandon Reilly?  or Morgan Stanley and JD Spielman?  Or having the peso defense on your side, with N.Suh, Jared Crick, Randy Gregory.  With surrounding players like that, in an offense like that, with a defense like that, he probably goes undefeated back-to-back years. Without it, he was amazing and a Heisman.
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That's a pretty weird mash-up.

Yes, Eric Crouch would have done great in the RPO. That system also put up big numbers for Martinez and Armstrong. Burkhead, Helu, and Abdullah are three of the best RBs all-time at Nebraska, and when our RB talent dropped off dramatically under Riley and Frost, we won fewer games. I think we'd take Dahhran Deidrick's 1,300 yards and Thunder Collins 650 yards and 6.9 per carry right now --- that 2001 running game was no slouch, and neither were Dan Alexander and Correll Buckhalter before them.

That awesome defense under Suh was wasted on a Zac Lee/Cody Green offense. It was still a solid defense when Taylor Martinez took over, and the Huskers remained relevant. But that's when the bottom starts falling out on defense. Eric Crouch still benefitted from the #10 scoring defense in the nation. Starting Taylor Martinez's junior year, every Nebraska quarterback has had to make up the slack for a defense ranked from #50 to #118, including #66 for Adrian's last full year. Playing from behind can wreak havoc on a rushing game.

So the question isn't so much whether Eric Crouch was a great quarterback. It's whether he would have won more games if dropped into the 2020 team, and whether Armstrong and both Martinez's would have won more games -- and respect -- if dropped into a vintage Husker offense and defense.

It's a pretty good question on an Adrian Martinez thread. 

But yeah, if you could cherry pick the best players from different teams and eras, I think several of our quarterbacks could have gone undefeated. 

 
hunter49 said:
the really good, talented QB's pick the top schools. as long as we play poorly,  we will only be able to attract leftovers.
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Adrian Martinez - offers from 26+ teams including Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio State.  Definitely seems like a leftover smh.

Logan Smothers - Offers from 10+ teams including Ohio State, Ole Miss, and would have had more big names but he shut his recruiting down very early to commit to us.  Definitely seems like a leftover.

200w.gif
 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
As mentioned, Patrick Mahomes was a system quarterback. His system gave him inflated passing numbers, which discounted him for the Heisman but worked well enough in the NFL system, although plenty of other college air-raid QBs flamed out in their pro careers. There are only two "systems" people seem to talk about in college: dual threat option and pocket passing air raid.

Some have argued that every Alabama QB is a system QB in that they only had to be efficient because everything around them was so good. Definitely some truth to that, but I wouldn't call those players "marginal" or easily replaceable. Actually not sure I understand your definition of system QB. You seem to be talking about mediocre QBs who still win games because the team is good. I don't think those teams go out scouting for mediocre QBs. 
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Oof, I was thinking of game manager and got it confused.  That's my bad

Guy Chamberlin said:
That's a pretty weird mash-up.

Yes, Eric Crouch would have done great in the RPO. That system also put up big numbers for Martinez and Armstrong. Burkhead, Helu, and Abdullah are three of the best RBs all-time at Nebraska, and when our RB talent dropped off dramatically under Riley and Frost, we won fewer games. I think we'd take Dahhran Deidrick's 1,300 yards and Thunder Collins 650 yards and 6.9 per carry right now --- that 2001 running game was no slouch, and neither were Dan Alexander and Correll Buckhalter before them.

That awesome defense under Suh was wasted on a Zac Lee/Cody Green offense. It was still a solid defense when Taylor Martinez took over, and the Huskers remained relevant. But that's when the bottom starts falling out on defense. Eric Crouch still benefitted from the #10 scoring defense in the nation. Starting Taylor Martinez's junior year, every Nebraska quarterback has had to make up the slack for a defense ranked from #50 to #118, including #66 for Adrian's last full year. Playing from behind can wreak havoc on a rushing game.

So the question isn't so much whether Eric Crouch was a great quarterback. It's whether he would have won more games if dropped into the 2020 team, and whether Armstrong and both Martinez's would have won more games -- and respect -- if dropped into a vintage Husker offense and defense.

It's a pretty good question on an Adrian Martinez thread. 

But yeah, if you could cherry pick the best players from different teams and eras, I think several of our quarterbacks could have gone undefeated. 
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Yeah

 
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Game manager is a good word and a good skill.

QB is the MVP position because it requires constant decision making and leadership. That doesn't always show up in the stats, but it hopefully shows up in the record. 

 
Hilltop said:
Adrian Martinez - offers from 26+ teams including Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio State.  Definitely seems like a leftover smh.

Logan Smothers - Offers from 10+ teams including Ohio State, Ole Miss, and would have had more big names but he shut his recruiting down very early to commit to us.  Definitely seems like a leftover.

 
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Adrian and Logan didn't commit after four straight losing seasons by this staff.

 
Lorewarn said:
Adrian and Logan didn't commit after four straight losing seasons by this staff.
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We haven't tried to recruit anyone since other than Haarberg.  He had 16 offers and interest from several top schools including Clemson, Oregon, K state etc..  He choose not to take any of them up on visits so who knows.  His only official visit was to Nebraska.  That's not the definition of a leftover.  I'll agree that recruiting will get harder if we don't start winning but our recruiting hasn't suffered yet.  We have plenty of talent on the roster to win.     

 
Toe said:
@Lorewarn Neither did literally anyone else. Would be kinda hard to, considering that such a situation has never happened. :dunno
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Hilltop said:
We haven't tried to recruit anyone since other than Haarberg.  He had 16 offers and interest from several top schools including Clemson, Oregon, K state etc..  He choose not to take any of them up on visits so who knows.  His only official visit was to Nebraska.  That's not the definition of a leftover.  I'll agree that recruiting will get harder if we don't start winning but our recruiting hasn't suffered yet.  We have plenty of talent on the roster to win.     
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The point @hunter49 is making is that we will struggle to attract top talent the more/longer we're a bad team. It's not hard to see this, or see the evidence for it. 

2018 - Adrian Martinez, with offers from 26+ teams including Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio State

2020 - Logan Smothers, with offers from Ohio State, Ole Miss, Louisville, Austin Peay, South Alabama, Southern Miss, Tennessee Tech, Troy, UAB

2021 - Heinrich Haarberg, with offers from Vanderbilt, Buffalo, Boston College, Central Michigan, Illinois State, McNeese State, North Carolina State, Northern Illinois, Northern Iowa, Ohio

2022 - Richard Torres, with offers from Kansas State, San Diego State, Tulsa, UNLV, Utah, and Washington State

It's not hard to see that as we stack up more and more subpar seasons, our ability to attract quarterback talent is falling.

 
Lorewarn said:
The point @hunter49 is making is that we will struggle to attract top talent the more/longer we're a bad team. It's not hard to see this, or see the evidence for it. 

2018 - Adrian Martinez, with offers from 26+ teams including Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio State

2020 - Logan Smothers, with offers from Ohio State, Ole Miss, Louisville, Austin Peay, South Alabama, Southern Miss, Tennessee Tech, Troy, UAB

2021 - Heinrich Haarberg, with offers from Vanderbilt, Buffalo, Boston College, Central Michigan, Illinois State, McNeese State, North Carolina State, Northern Illinois, Northern Iowa, Ohio

2022 - Richard Torres, with offers from Kansas State, San Diego State, Tulsa, UNLV, Utah, and Washington State

It's not hard to see that as we stack up more and more subpar seasons, our ability to attract quarterback talent is falling.
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His statement was we would/are taking leftovers.  Haarberg and Torres are not leftovers by any stretch.  They are QBs we sought out, right or wrong, that visited us and committed prior to giving anyone much of a chance.  Haarberg didn't visit anyone or attend any camps to speak of and Torres only visited us and K-State.  

Now people can guess about what will happen in the future but nothing in the past suggests Nebraska will be taking "leftovers" other than negative guys like hunter49.    

 
AM had offers from some top schools but they weren’t committable due to him missing his whole Sr year.   He went almost 2 years before actually playing live football.  
 

Smothers had some good offers with tOSU talking to him. 
 

HH had Gus at Auburn sniffing around until HH committed to us.  
 

NONE of them are Elite top QBs that we honestly need.  Look at OU,  they have Rattler who was the #1 QB a couple years ago and then they just landed the top 2023 QB.  That is from winning and having a system that proves it. 

 
Hilltop said:
They are QBs we sought out, right or wrong, that visited us and committed prior to giving anyone much of a chance.
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Did we seek them out because they were the guys we wanted above ALL other quarterbacks, or did we seek them out because they were the best we thought we could realistically get? 

No way to know for sure, but I feel fairly confident that at least Torres would never be a Nebraska commit if we were winning 11-12 games a year.

 
Lorewarn said:
Did we seek them out because they were the guys we wanted above ALL other quarterbacks, or did we seek them out because they were the best we thought we could realistically get? 

No way to know for sure, but I feel fairly confident that at least Torres would never be a Nebraska commit if we were winning 11-12 games a year.
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I'm sure the Oregon fan base felt the same about Mariota who didn't have offers from any big names.  Or 3 star Lamar Jackson who went on to win the Heisman at Lousville.  Most schools interested in him didn't want him to be a QB.  I'm sure fans at UCF didn't think much of 2 star McKenzie Milton.  Johnny Manziel is another 3 star with a short offer list who didn't look like much on paper.  Taylor Martinez was a 3 star that nobody expected much from.    

Not all great QBs come with a 4 star plus profile.  Staffs target who they like and secrets are pretty tough to keep at Nebraska.  If we were after a big name, it would be plastered everywhere.  We targeted those two guys because we wanted them.  We liked their character, their skill set, and the staff feels either could be the guy at some point in the future.  

Slamming a kid like Torres who hasn't even set foot on our field yet is a pretty crappy thing for a fan to do imo.   

 
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