Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[JJ Husker]

Or these thoughts from God. 

1 John 3:17, NIV: "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?


Luke 18:25 King James Version (KJV)


25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. (NIV, 1 Timothy 6:17-19)

In Capitalism money is the measure of a man .The rich are to be adored and worshiped as the winners of the game .  I don’t think God agrees with that . There are also many , many verses I could post about compassion for your fellow man , helping the poor, equality,  etc which are socialistic ideas . 

I think your summary of what capitalism is a bit off, spun to fit the purpose and that the rich are to be adored and worshipped as winners is just more narrative. But yes there are limitless examples of helping your fellow man and those less fortunate in the Bible. I would argue that those are more examples of personal charity and caring rather than being some example of socialism.

If making money is so evil how do you explain the parable of the talents I mentioned above? How can the rich help the poor if becoming rich is evil? I'd be interested to see the Biblical reference that leads anyone to believe that what is desired is turning our money over to a government entity to redistribute to the needy.

Having said that, I am actually in favor of socialized healthcare at this point. Our capitalistic society has screwed it up so bad that I just see no other viable solution.

 

[Big Red 40]

What other objective does capitalism have otter than amassing wealth ? 

I think a lot of the Bible verses are a reminder that there’s a whole lot more to life, humanity, and the measure of a man , than work and money . Virtue lies in the love and compassion you show for your fellow man etc not money alone .

Pretty sure there is nothing in the Bible about giving control of your money to a government entity no . Lol   

I agree about socialized healthcare . We already have a blend of socialism , and capitalism in this country we just need to swing more towards the social side on issues like that . 

 

[RedDenver]

I think there's a good discussion here, but can we split off the socialism discussion from the Ocasio-Cortez thread?

 

[RedDenver]

Also, establishment Democrats (politicians) show once again they don't support the unity they claim that the progressives should have:

Joe Lieberman urges voters to back Crowley over Ocasio-Cortez in general

That's right, Jow Crowley (the incumbent) that AOC beat in the primary ended up winning a third party primary, and Lieberman wants him to run against her. Against the Democratic Party. His own party. The Dems are more interested in protecting the status quo than even winning.

BRAND NEW CONGRESS!!! Replace them all.

 

[JJ Husker]

What other objective does capitalism have otter than amassing wealth ? 

I think a lot of the Bible verses are a reminder that there’s a whole lot more to life, humanity, and the measure of a man , than work and money . Virtue lies in the love and compassion you show for your fellow man etc not money alone .

Pretty sure there is nothing in the Bible about giving control of your money to a government entity no . Lol   

I agree about socialized healthcare . We already have a blend of socialism , and capitalism in this country we just need to swing more towards the social side on issues like that . 

You're right, there is no mention in the Bible that the goal should be amassing wealth and there is a whole bunch about helping others. But capitalism is simply an economic and political system. Some individuals may make it their goal to amass as much wealth as possible but that doesn't make it any inherent goal or requirement to make the system function. And yes it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. But that deals with the individual and speaks to the corrupting power of money and wealth. I think God is plenty okay with people making gobs of money, as long as they also satisfy the requirements of charity and helping their fellow man and not making money some kind of idol. IDK, it's dealing with related issues but on two different levels.

 

[Mierin]

You're right, there is no mention in the Bible that the goal should be amassing wealth and there is a whole bunch about helping others. But capitalism is simply an economic and political system. Some individuals may make it their goal to amass as much wealth as possible but that doesn't make it any inherent goal or requirement to make the system function. And yes it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. But that deals with the individual and speaks to the corrupting power of money and wealth. I think God is plenty okay with people making gobs of money, as long as they also satisfy the requirements of charity and helping their fellow man and not making money some kind of idol. IDK, it's dealing with related issues but on two different levels.

Is money an idol if you hoard more than you can ever spend in 10 lifetimes?

Anyhow, I think society benefits from forcing the wicked to help despite themselves. And in case it's misinterpreted, I'm talking about people who want to help no one, rich or poor, and who would help no one even with no taxes.

 

[Big Red 40]

I think there's a good discussion here, but can we split off the socialism discussion from the Ocasio-Cortez thread?

Yeah op did get derailed a bit I’ll bow out . Back to your regularly scheduled program . 

 

[knapplc]

What other objective does capitalism have otter than amassing wealth ? 

None. In fact, the root of that societal philosophy is in the name: Capital. It's all about money, collecting assets, amassing wealth. Anything charitable is not intrinsically part of a system based on gaining capital.

 

[knapplc]

I think God is plenty okay with people making gobs of money, as long as they also satisfy the requirements of charity and helping their fellow man and not making money some kind of idol.

Matthew 19:21-26 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”  When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth. Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”  Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Mark 4:19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Proverbs 23:4-5 Do not wear yourself out to get rich;  do not trust your own cleverness.Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone, for they will surely sprout wings and fly off to the sky like an eagle.

James 5:1-6 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.  You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

Proverbs 11:28 He who trusts in his riches will fall, but the righteous shall flourish as the green leaf.

Proverbs 11:4 Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath,  but righteousness delivers from death.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed.

Luke 16:14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.”

 

[Mierin]

Had another related thought.

Why do any Christians who want(ed) laws to not let gays get married or adopt, not also want to force people to help the poor? Why pick and choose? Homosexuality (and women wearing pants) is an abomination. And we're supposed to help the poor. Both are in the Bible. Why pick and choose which things in the Bible the government should be involved in?

I personally think Christianity shouldn't be mixed with government and my reason for wanting healthcare to be free is based solely on the fact that we could afford it and it's the right thing to do. I fail to understand why more Christians don't feel this way. They fight against the government being involved in some Biblical things but not others.

And yes, I know not all Christians wanted there to be laws against gays. But the GOP is anti tax and anti-welfare, and a lot of Christians are Republicans and have been for a long time. Ones I know personally are against government health care of any kind. So there has to be an intersection here.

 

[Landlord]

If making money is so evil how do you explain the parable of the talents I mentioned above?

Per my understanding (I've had a modest but intensive amount of biblical/theological training), the parable of the Talents is an instruction on how to wisely and boldly use your talents/gifts/resources (including wealth) in service of God's kingdom and your fellow man. It also has an undertone of proper trust and perception of God - the first two servants see the master as generous, understanding and kind and the third sees the master with fear.

Interestingly, a pretty important element of that parable, probably the most important element, which I think still kind of speaks against capitalism, is that the master is entrusting his money in the hands of his servants until he returns - it's not their money at all. Capitalism is founded on acquiring personal wealth, while the story is about rewarding faithfulness and good stewardship of what you're given, with the knowledge that it's not really yours in the first place.

Pretty sure there is nothing in the Bible about giving control of your money to a government entity no .

There isn't. The closest is Acts 4 when the early church sold all their possessions and pooled their resources to care for each other and others. The apostles were the governing body in the church, but you're right that it was not a state sanctioned government or anything like that. It also wasn't compelled to those who weren't interested.

 

[TGHusker]

One thing about this discussion on Socialism vs Capitalism is that Jesus never endorses a political/economic philosophy.  He instead flips the discussion to the individual - "what are you going to do about the poor, the naked, the hungry -- YOUR neighbor.  He doesn't ask - what is your govt going to do about it?  Generosity is to be an individual virtue. Yes, it can be and should be a national virtue as well but only as we as individuals are generous in total.   We cannot say that we are a generous person if that is based solely on the govt spending our collective tax dollars - that is being generous wt other people's money.   The Biblical example of King David not willing to sacrifice to God with a gift given to him from another because it 'cost him nothing' comes into play.  

I also think we have to be aware of not casting judgment on either capitalism or socialism to harshly. They are just tools - inherently morally neutral.  It is what we do with them that make them tools of good or 'evil'.  Money is not the root of all evil.  It is the LOVE of money that is - as Paul tells Timothy.  Money raised by the tool of capitalism can be and has been used to generate great good in society and to fund social programs.   God Bless a Bill Gates for example who has made billions but who also contributes huge sums of money to social concerns.  Without the capitalistic society we have, he might not have had the freedom, initiative, and the reward to offset risk to create the products that we use but also create profits that fund so many of his charitable endeavors.   This can be true of each of us on an individual level - even with our smaller resources - as noted in the parable of the talents posted previously.  This is how we fulfill Jesus's words to cloth the naked, feed the hungry, etc.

 

[JJ Husker]

And I want to be clear on my position on this. Just because I don’t think the Bible promotes socialism (or capitalism) doesn’t eliminate my support for any possible socialist policy. We have plenty of them in our system now that are sort of required and actually working to some extent and, depending on the specifics, I may find more are needed (such as with healthcare). But yes a person with that many seeming planks of socialism in their platform will cause me to look at them harder and probably with a bit of a jaded eye. I guess that is why I brought the issue of socialism up in this thread to begin with. I apologize if it skewed the discussion too far.

 

[BigRedBuster]

One thing about this discussion on Socialism vs Capitalism is that Jesus never endorses a political/economic philosophy.  He instead flips the discussion to the individual - "what are you going to do about the poor, the naked, the hungry -- YOUR neighbor.  He doesn't ask - what is your govt going to do about it?  Generosity is to be an individual virtue. Yes, it can be and should be a national virtue as well but only as we as individuals are generous in total.   We cannot say that we are a generous person if that is based solely on the govt spending our collective tax dollars - that is being generous wt other people's money.   The Biblical example of King David not willing to sacrifice to God with a gift given to him from another because it 'cost him nothing' comes into play.  

I also think we have to be aware of not casting judgment on either capitalism or socialism to harshly. They are just tools - inherently morally neutral.  It is what we do with them that make them tools of good or 'evil'.  Money is not the root of all evil.  It is the LOVE of money that is - as Paul tells Timothy.  Money raised by the tool of capitalism can be and has been used to generate great good in society and to fund social programs.   God Bless a Bill Gates for example who has made billions but who also contributes huge sums of money to social concerns.  Without the capitalistic society we have, he might not have had the freedom, initiative, and the reward to offset risk to create the products that we use but also create profits that fund so many of his charitable endeavors.   This can be true of each of us on an individual level - even with our smaller resources - as noted in the parable of the talents posted previously.  This is how we fulfill Jesus's words to cloth the naked, feed the hungry, etc.

For the most part I agree with you.  However, collectively, as individuals we need to sometimes support programs that help out everyone including the poor.  An example is healthcare.  Individually, I can do absolutely nothing to help a poor person pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for cancer treatment or a heart surgery (that should cost a tenth of that).

We as Christians should have our compassion in mind when we vote for our representatives.  Voting for someone who does nothing but promise to lower your taxes and give you your money back and cut social programs......is not the compassion Christ meant.

Christ would support a healthy debate in society about how it's best to have a safety net for the poor.

 

[TGHusker]

For the most part I agree with you.  However, collectively, as individuals we need to sometimes support programs that help out everyone including the poor.  An example is healthcare.  Individually, I can do absolutely nothing to help a poor person pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for cancer treatment or a heart surgery (that should cost a tenth of that).

We as Christians should have our compassion in mind when we vote for our representatives.  Voting for someone who does nothing but promise to lower your taxes and give you your money back and cut social programs......is not the compassion Christ meant.

Christ would support a healthy debate in society about how it's best to have a safety net for the poor.

agree 100% - my post isn't meant to diminish what we can do collectively  - and part of that is discussing what govt can do.