Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[Landlord]

Money is not the root of all evil.  It is the LOVE of money that is - as Paul tells Timothy.  Money raised by the tool of capitalism can be and has been used to generate great good in society and to fund social programs.   God Bless a Bill Gates for example who has made billions but who also contributes huge sums of money to social concerns. 

Love of money implies an intention or a posture of the heart. An internal motivation. But then you're taking an external circumstances and using that as a defense of or a compliment to capitalism. Per your/scripture's argument, who cares if Bill Gates has contributed huge sums of money if his own love of money was the motivating factor that got him there in the first place? 

Capitalism isn't all bad, but the entire philosophy of how it succeeds is centered around the 'love of money'. The system itself is a neutral tool, but this particular system results in pretty much everybody loving money to an extent that I would imagine Jesus of Nazareth would have some very harsh words towards.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Love of money implies an intention or a posture of the heart. An internal motivation. But then you're taking an external circumstances and using that as a defense of or a compliment to capitalism. Per your/scripture's argument, who cares if Bill Gates has contributed huge sums of money if his own love of money was the motivating factor that got him there in the first place? 

Capitalism isn't all bad, but the entire philosophy of how it succeeds is centered around the 'love of money'. The system itself is a neutral tool, but this particular system results in pretty much everybody loving money to an extent that I would imagine Jesus of Nazareth would have some very harsh words towards.

I really don't agree with this.

There are one heck of a lot of people who are successful in capitalism that don't wake up in the morning with the extreme desire to go see how much money they can hoard.

 

[Landlord]

I really don't agree with this.

There are one heck of a lot of people who are successful in capitalism that don't wake up in the morning with the extreme desire to go see how much money they can hoard.

I think you're thinking that I'm talking about some sinister, nefarious greedy greaseballs like Donald Trump, when I'm just talking about you and I. Acquiring money is the underlying motivation of almost everything we do. It might not seem like an obsessive love of money, but it's a system where acquiring capital is the only way to survive, and it's what we're subliminally taught as soon as we're able to learn. 

Love of money for people in capitalistic societies is like water for fish. Ask a fish how the water is and they'll ask, "What the hell is water?" :lol:

 

[Big Red 40]

And I want to be clear on my position on this. Just because I don’t think the Bible promotes socialism (or capitalism) doesn’t eliminate my support for any possible socialist policy. We have plenty of them in our system now that are sort of required and actually working to some extent and, depending on the specifics, I may find more are needed (such as with healthcare). But yes a person with that many seeming planks of socialism in their platform will cause me to look at them harder and probably with a bit of a jaded eye. I guess that is why I brought the issue of socialism up in this thread to begin with. I apologize if it skewed the discussion too far.

The discussion branched into two other areas,  which both could have made good threads on their own . 1. The pros and cons of capitalism and socialism , and how they should be blended for the benefit of society . 2. The effect that religious beliefs/God have on peoples political views and why . 

As far as the OP goes I like most of Cortezs proposals , though I don’t think this country as a whole is ready to support that kind of agenda . There are justified worries about the cost of some of it, and the socialistic nature of it . I think a large portion of the population are still programmed to automatically reject anything with the word socialism attached to it . Eventually though I think a wave of young progressives will be elected and  push this country towards a more social mentality than we see now . Ocasio type gendas will become more the norm, and less of a scary socialist boogeyman . 

 

[TGHusker]

Love of money implies an intention or a posture of the heart. An internal motivation. But then you're taking an external circumstances and using that as a defense of or a compliment to capitalism. Per your/scripture's argument, who cares if Bill Gates has contributed huge sums of money if his own love of money was the motivating factor that got him there in the first place? 

Capitalism isn't all bad, but the entire philosophy of how it succeeds is centered around the 'love of money'. The system itself is a neutral tool, but this particular system results in pretty much everybody loving money to an extent that I would imagine Jesus of Nazareth would have some very harsh words towards.

We may be splitting hairs here but I know business men/women who see  capitalism as the system to magnify their love for God and people by using it to fulfill the mission to care for people and advance God's kingdom in this world. I've known of business which are in business for the sole purpose of using the funds above operation costs to fund outreach.  So, again, it comes back to us on the individual level.  We can use it for the benefit of others or it can have a corrupting affect on us.

 

[TGHusker]

Love of money for people in capitalistic societies is like water for fish. Ask a fish how the water is and they'll ask, "What the hell is water?" :lol:

Good line.  Love it.

But to expand your point  - this is why it was wrong for GWB to try to 'democratize' Iraq and Afghanistan.  Those societies have no rudimentary concept of what our water is like.  They didn't have the gills for our water and it was bound to fail. 

 

[RedDenver]

But to expand your point  - this is why it was wrong for GWB to try to 'democratize' Iraq and Afghanistan.  Those societies have no rudimentary concept of what our water is like.  They didn't have the gills for our water and it was bound to fail. 

So those people don't get democracy because we think they aren't ready for it? I don't understand this reasoning at all.

 

[BigRedBuster]

So those people don't get democracy because we think they aren't ready for it? I don't understand this reasoning at all.

Sure they do.

But, I don't think it's worth American's lives and trillions of dollars to force it on them.  If a population doesn't fight and come together to promote democracy in their country themselves, it's a recipe for disaster and that's what we have seen in those countries.  The freedom it gives them, also allows the worst of the worst to rise to power and control, through force, people who want to live in peace.

 

[RedDenver]

Sure they do.

But, I don't think it's worth American's lives and trillions of dollars to force it on them.  If a population doesn't fight and come together to promote democracy in their country themselves, it's a recipe for disaster and that's what we have seen in those countries.  The freedom it gives them, also allows the worst of the worst to rise to power and control, through force, people who want to live in peace.

I see. I thought you were saying we should have installed some other form of government like a dictator sympathetic to US interests.

 

[JJ Husker]

What other objective does capitalism have otter than amassing wealth ? 

None. In fact, the root of that societal philosophy is in the name: Capital. It's all about money, collecting assets, amassing wealth. Anything charitable is not intrinsically part of a system based on gaining capital.

I disagree that is the only objective. I would say the main objective is to appropriately balance supply and demand. Money is simply the tool that helps set production and usage levels. If an item costs too much to produce suppliers will cut back on production of that item or stop all together. If the item makes them gobs of money then they will expand production. Likewise if an item is overpriced people won't buy it and if it's under priced they will buy more which in turn will cause producers to change pricing and/or production levels. It also determines wages and which skills society encourages and discourages. The main objective is keeping our whole economic system balanced.

And this is why I believe it is not the best system for things such as healthcare. The problem being that there cannot be a voluntary exchange of money for services when the consumer is in a no choice situation. Spend this amount or suffer or die? That's not a choice or free exchange. In a healthy system it may work but when corruption and greed are interjected it interferes with the proper functioning. This is why some things need government oversight or even full on price control.  And then we have to hold the government accountable and keep an eye on their corruption and greed. It all takes a delicate balance no matter which economic system is in play.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I think you're thinking that I'm talking about some sinister, nefarious greedy greaseballs like Donald Trump, when I'm just talking about you and I. Acquiring money is the underlying motivation of almost everything we do. It might not seem like an obsessive love of money, but it's a system where acquiring capital is the only way to survive, and it's what we're subliminally taught as soon as we're able to learn. 

Love of money for people in capitalistic societies is like water for fish. Ask a fish how the water is and they'll ask, "What the hell is water?" :lol:

The vast majority of people wake up in a capitalistic society with a job that they love doing or tolerate and that job pays them and puts food on their table and allows their families to do what they want.  If they have a job offer that is better and pays better, they may take it, not all do.  This even includes a lot of business owners.

This is not describing the "love of money" or any type of nefarious act or feelings towards money that would go against Christian values.  Heck, a lot of people take a portion of that money and do great things with it for other people.

Just because people have a job that they earn money and they use that money to feed themselves and do things fun, doesn't mean this is against Christianity.

 

[Big Red 40]

The vast majority of people wake up in a capitalistic society with a job that they love doing or tolerate and that job pays them and puts food on their table and allows their families to do what they want. If they have a job offer that is better and pays better, they may take it, not all do.  This even includes a lot of business owners.

This is not describing the "love of money" or any type of nefarious act or feelings towards money that would go against Christian values.  Heck, a lot of people take a portion of that money and do great things with it for other people.

Just because people have a job that they earn money and they use that money to feed themselves and do things fun, doesn't mean this is against Christianity.

I realize there are lots of College degreed, business owners etc on this board but  I can tell you through many years as an hourly wage,  working class joe (the majority)  a lot of the bold isn’t necessarily true. 

I go someplace I don’t want to go, work hours that they decide (usually bad and way too many)  , get paid whatever they decide I’m worth (the absolute least they can get away with )  , and go by their 50,000  rules . Since I live in a small community and there is no choice (except worse )  I tolerate it , yes but I don’t know anyone my level on down who “loves it” ? (Is loving your job really a thing ? )

Through the years I kept moving up and acquiring skills, so I finally make decent money but millions are doing much worse. I don’t know how they do it . Most cases people are fighting to get by, don’t have much time or money to do much of “what they want “at all either  .

When one mans day of work is “worth” millions , and another’s is worth a few crumbs it’s not a fair system and actually pretty cruel imo . Not sure God would approve . 

 

[BigRedBuster]

I realize there are lots of College degreed, business owners etc on this board but  I can tell you through many years as an hourly wage,  working class joe (the majority)  a lot of the bold isn’t necessarily true. 

I go someplace I don’t want to go, work hours that they decide (usually bad and way too many)  , get paid whatever they decide I’m worth (the absolute least they can get away with )  , and go by their 50,000  rules . Since I live in a small community and there is no choice (except worse )  I tolerate it , yes but I don’t know anyone my level on down who “loves it” ? (Is loving your job really a thing ? )

Through the years I kept moving up and acquiring skills, so I finally make decent money but millions are doing much worse. I don’t know how they do it . Most cases people are fighting to get by, don’t have much time or money to do much of “what they want “at all either  .

When one mans day of work is “worth” millions , and another’s is worth a few crumbs it’s not a fair system and actually pretty cruel imo . Not sure God would approve . 

You obviously missed the phrase “or tolerate”. 

And yes, there are people who love what they do. 

 

[RedDenver]

And yes, there are people who love what they do. 

Man, I can't even imagine loving any job, and my current job isn't bad at all with lots of flexibility in my time. For those of you that do, enjoy every freaking minute of it for the rest of us. (And try to have some empathy for the rest when economic topics come up.)

 

[TGHusker]

I see. I thought you were saying we should have installed some other form of government like a dictator sympathetic to US interests.

What I was saying - culturally they have had 'strong man' rule for generations.  The mid east has been full of strong man rule - either religious or in the case of Saddam - secular - The closest they came to democracy was when they were colonies of Brittan and other European countries - but even then they weren't self governing.  As primarily Islamic - their religion was both religious and political in nature.