All things Poland

[zoogs]

I think the issue there is the number. If the WSJ reporting is accurate -- that this same event has historically drawn hundreds, but it has greatly increased in the last few years, to 60,000 this year -- it seems clear that "all 60,000 are Neo-Nazis" is a lazy misreading that needs to be amended. In fact, an actual reading of the WSJ article should make it clear that there's no opposition to a celebration of Poland independence. I'm still a bit confused as to where the idea that the liberal media/ West wants to tear down Polish independence comes from...but on this count, I clearly have less context for Poland than you do.

None of that takes away from the general gist of the article, and all of the public sources that are vociferously fighting for that (I don't mean you) appear to be fake news.

If this is going to come down to "I support the anti-immigration wave in Europe and condemn the liberals in America who oppose it", then we'll be at loggerheads, but it would make sense. I know plenty of people who feel that way.

 

[Excel]

I'm still a bit confused as to where the idea that the liberal media/ West

I never said "the liberal media." I talked about media and liberals but not "the liberal media". I don't mean to be a nit-picky jerk but the distinction is important. I feel like knapp and you are trying to edge me in to some kind of cuckoo conservative box which I'm not in...I'm not saying that there's some massive liberal media conspiracy. A lot of this is the media being lazy which happens, or just accepting what politicians and authorities are telling them blindly. 

wants to tear down Polish independence comes from

....well I don't believe that. They're not trying to dissolve Poland or anything, I'm not saying that. They, mostly the EU but liberals in media as well, are trying to limit Poland's independence and bring them, along with many other newer members, in to lockstep with Brussels on several key issues through censures and inquires and potentially greater steps on a variety of issues including immigration. They're probably within their rights to do so, those countries voluntarily joined the union, but it is against the wishes of at least many of the Poles that were out today and other Eastern Europeans.

Those things are fact. 

My opinion is that some of these same people are vastly overplaying the "Nazi Problem" and labeling many conservatives and euro-skeptics as Nazis and Fascists when they are not.

I'm speculating when I try to imagine why they're doing it, I offered up three reasons:

1. Unintentional: They cannot tell the difference between nationalist and patriotic symbols and traditions and fascist ones, and to be fair this can be a hard thing to do, the line is hard to draw because fascists frequently appropriate such symbols.

2. Unintentional and Subconscious: They need their enemy to be big and powerful to motivate themselves and make them feel better about what they're doing. This is a pretty common thing in War Propaganda ("BEAT BACK THE HUN") and even in Sports.

3. Intentional and Malicious: They label conservatives as fascists to sideline them and make them seem less appealing to moderates, much like how all Democrats are communists according to some conservatives. In Germany they did it with AfD who were apparently all Nazis, while the actual Nazi-ish NPD barely got any votes.

I think those are all reasonable explanations if you accept my original opinion. They're not some "wacko-hur-de-dur all liberals are evil stupid Commies" explanations.

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If this is going to come down to "I support the anti-immigration wave in Europe and condemn the liberals in America who oppose it", then we'll be at loggerheads

It doesn't have to. I don't think euro-skeptics and anti-immigration folks in Europe much care about what American liberals think of them so I don't care much about that.

...but for the record I don't support welcoming immigrants and refugees to Europe because there are better options available. I just got back from Kuwait, lots of Pakistanis and Indians there, Filipinos and Egyptians too but I never met a Syrian or Afghan. Most of the Gulf is the same way....but that is a completely different topic and I'm guessing there's a thread for that in this forum and my opinion of European Politics means jack-all as an American.

 

[zoogs]

Thanks for clarifying. Our differing understandings of what is "far-right" in Europe is fascinating. You mention the AfD. I wonder what you'd say about Le Pen and the FN in France, or the Freedom Party of Austria, or the Forum for Democracy party of the Netherlands. It seems like much of what we understand, through their stateside coverage, as "alt right" or "far right", you are defending as merely "conservative" and "nationalist". And you're saying the stateside coverage is fueled by Eurocentrism.

 

[Excel]

Thanks for clarifying. Our differing understandings of what is "far-right" in Europe is fascinating. You mention the AfD. I wonder what you'd say about Le Pen and the FN in France, or the Freedom Party of Austria, or the Forum for Democracy party of the Netherlands.

I'd call them clown-houses including AfD. I would say that they're right wing, and if "far-right" didn't imply Fascism I'd probably use that term because they are just that, farther right than the traditional conservative parties in those countries...but I do not consider them fascists. What would you say about them?

It seems like much of what we understand, through their stateside coverage, as "alt right" or "far right", you are defending as merely "conservative" and "nationalist".

Alternative right might be a good term for those parties too if it didn't also have all the Richard Spencers, and Channers, and Milos attached to it. 

And you're saying the stateside coverage is fueled by Eurocentrism.

You mean kind of a EU-centric Pro-Europeanism. Yea sort of, in the sense that many media outlets in the US take their lead on that issue from their European counterparts who are pretty pro-EU but I don't think there's any kind of conscious or orchestrated Pro-EU campaign by media outlets here. There are discussions related to Europeanization like immigration and some economic aspects but the broader topic doesn't seem to get discussed much...outside of Brexit. Not that it matters because I'm an American...but I'm pro-EU. European integration is good for everyone most people. Common market, Schengen,  Common Defense, these are vast improvements over the old system.