Chatelain: It's a running battle with playcaller Tim Beck

[sd'sker]

You made a snide comment instead of actually contributing to the conversation. I was calling a spade a spade.

It's disengenous to say I borrowed Watson's stats to make and point and you know it.

Are you honestly going to claim that the OC and his system has no bearing on individual stats? Why bother replacing Beck then if it makes no difference in how the players perform.

My argument is that Beck puts his players in a position to excel, and I backed that up. You back up your arguments with your opinion. Which is more pointless and inaccurate?

you did borrow watson's stats to make a point. that is a fact. if you are going to use stats, you could at least be accurate.
good players get good stats. but just pointing to 4 players (and most of those records have no bearing on the production of the offense. how many carries did burkhead get?!?) to prove how good the oc is is pretty thin.

the original argument was that beck was breaking to's teams rushing stats and callahan's passing stats and then you just pointed to a bunch of individual records indiscriminately. i was not compelled.

and seriously, no need for the personal attacks.

Quit with the straw men. I never once said team stats. Go and check. I'll wait.

you never said players, either. so 1 point to vagaries! but you did say:

Beck's offense is breaking Osborne era rushing records and Callahan era passing records. Of course we should fire him.

Which ones?

"beck's offense" which would imply his offense, as in all of it [SIZE=13.63636302948px](in comparison to osborne era rushing records, not osborne era players' records and so on)[/SIZE].

 

[caveman99]

Which ones?

Pretty much all of them.

bullsh#t

Oh?

I see individual numbers, where is his offense breaking team records for scoring, rushing, passing for a season.

Moving the goalposts. As per usual.

So the answer is he isn't.

IIRC this O is on pace to be best rushing Husker Team since '95, which was a record setting year. The total O numbers are also on pace to place high in team history. That is from the game broadcasts and on 1620 IIRC. If I have time tomorrow, I will try to find a written source since that is where you will go next I am sure.

 

[Abdullah the Butcher]

You made a snide comment instead of actually contributing to the conversation. I was calling a spade a spade.

It's disengenous to say I borrowed Watson's stats to make and point and you know it.

Are you honestly going to claim that the OC and his system has no bearing on individual stats? Why bother replacing Beck then if it makes no difference in how the players perform.

My argument is that Beck puts his players in a position to excel, and I backed that up. You back up your arguments with your opinion. Which is more pointless and inaccurate?

you did borrow watson's stats to make a point. that is a fact. if you are going to use stats, you could at least be accurate.
good players get good stats. but just pointing to 4 players (and most of those records have no bearing on the production of the offense. how many carries did burkhead get?!?) to prove how good the oc is is pretty thin.

the original argument was that beck was breaking to's teams rushing stats and callahan's passing stats and then you just pointed to a bunch of individual records indiscriminately. i was not compelled.

and seriously, no need for the personal attacks.

Quit with the straw men. I never once said team stats. Go and check. I'll wait.

You said Beck's offense is breaking records, a reasonable man would assume team records, as Beck's offense isn't the one setting the individual records.

 

[sd'sker]

IIRC this O is on pace to be best rushing Husker Team since '95, which was a record setting year. The total O numbers are also on pace to place high in team history. That is from the game broadcasts and on 1620 IIRC. If I have time tomorrow, I will try to find a written source since that is where you will go next I am sure.

that would be compelling and relevant. but still would not offer much support to the passing side of the claim.

 

[Branno]

You made a snide comment instead of actually contributing to the conversation. I was calling a spade a spade.

It's disengenous to say I borrowed Watson's stats to make and point and you know it.

Are you honestly going to claim that the OC and his system has no bearing on individual stats? Why bother replacing Beck then if it makes no difference in how the players perform.

My argument is that Beck puts his players in a position to excel, and I backed that up. You back up your arguments with your opinion. Which is more pointless and inaccurate?

you did borrow watson's stats to make a point. that is a fact. if you are going to use stats, you could at least be accurate.
good players get good stats. but just pointing to 4 players (and most of those records have no bearing on the production of the offense. how many carries did burkhead get?!?) to prove how good the oc is is pretty thin.

the original argument was that beck was breaking to's teams rushing stats and callahan's passing stats and then you just pointed to a bunch of individual records indiscriminately. i was not compelled.

and seriously, no need for the personal attacks.

Quit with the straw men. I never once said team stats. Go and check. I'll wait.

you never said players, either. so 1 point to vagaries! but you did say:

Beck's offense is breaking Osborne era rushing records and Callahan era passing records. Of course we should fire him.

Which ones?

"beck's offense" which would imply his offense, as in all of it (in comparison to osborne era rushing records, not osborne era players' records and so on).

So are QBs, RBs, and WRs no longer part of the offense?

To start an argument with me you made an incorrect assumption. I continued with my obvious point that the stats were individual stats by posting them. At that point you should have been able to finally parse the original meaning of my statement but instead you doubled down to make more snide comments. You can disagree all you want about his ability to call a game. But numbers don't lie. His system helps his players break records. That's just as much on Beck as on the player.

 

[Branno]

You made a snide comment instead of actually contributing to the conversation. I was calling a spade a spade.

It's disengenous to say I borrowed Watson's stats to make and point and you know it.

Are you honestly going to claim that the OC and his system has no bearing on individual stats? Why bother replacing Beck then if it makes no difference in how the players perform.

My argument is that Beck puts his players in a position to excel, and I backed that up. You back up your arguments with your opinion. Which is more pointless and inaccurate?

you did borrow watson's stats to make a point. that is a fact. if you are going to use stats, you could at least be accurate.
good players get good stats. but just pointing to 4 players (and most of those records have no bearing on the production of the offense. how many carries did burkhead get?!?) to prove how good the oc is is pretty thin.

the original argument was that beck was breaking to's teams rushing stats and callahan's passing stats and then you just pointed to a bunch of individual records indiscriminately. i was not compelled.

and seriously, no need for the personal attacks.

Quit with the straw men. I never once said team stats. Go and check. I'll wait.

You said Beck's offense is breaking records, a reasonable man would assume team records, as Beck's offense isn't the one setting the individual records.

Would a reasonable man then keep his incorrect assumption after it's shown to be wrong?

The thing I love about this is you are all ignoring the numbers. Well numbers don't lie. These players are excelling. And it is not in spite of Beck.

 

[Landlord]

All we're saying is that the following situation is mind-numbing:

Our All-American Heisman candidate RB just ripped off TD runs of 48 and 53 yards in back-to-back drives.

Hmm... Let's throw it 3 times and punt.

This over-thinking has been pretty typical of Beck over his career. Stick with what's working until they prove they can stop it. We were gashing them. Why pass until you have to?

Okay...except that it's not. Because Beck doesn't think, "Let's throw three straight incomplete passes and punt the ball."

He thinks something loosely along the lines of, "Alright we're up 21-7 and they just had a quick three and out. Our last two touchdowns we shoved it down their throat with Ameer so they are definitely going to be keying on stopping him. Let's throw a play-action pass on 1st down because they'll likely expect us to run with Ameer, Tommy throws well off play-action and if we catch them overcommitting to the run then we might score again in the blink of an eye. All things considered, that's a high efficiency choice for us on this down.

Okay, we didn't complete that pass. But we've still got field position and they're showing soft coverage so we can pick up 6 easy ones for a more manageable third.

Well we had that open but Tommy didn't deliver it. It's 3rd and 10 yeah I don't think it's unreasonable to pass it on this down and distance."

Really not mind-numbing at all.

 

[JTrain]

This is rich.

How many times does Beck's offense appear in Nebraska's top ten all-time:

1. Passing yards in a game

2. Rushing yards in a game

3. Total yards in a game

4. Points in a game

5. Passing yards/game in a season

6. Rushing yards/game in a season

7. Total yards/game in a season

8. Points/game in a season

Oh, but Martinez did go 13 of 14 against Ark. St.

 

[sd'sker]

This is rich.

How many times does Beck's offense appear in Nebraska's top ten all-time:

1. Passing yards in a game

2. Rushing yards in a game

3. Total yards in a game

4. Points in a game

5. Passing yards/game in a season

6. Rushing yards/game in a season

7. Total yards/game in a season

8. Points/game in a season

Oh, but Martinez did go 13 of 14 against Ark. St.

yup, those are the type of stats i was expecting. not how many carries burkhead had in a game. or sophomore wide receiver records.

 

[Landlord]

This is rich.

How many times does Beck's offense appear in Nebraska's top ten all-time:

1. Passing yards in a game

2. Rushing yards in a game

3. Total yards in a game

4. Points in a game

5. Passing yards/game in a season

6. Rushing yards/game in a season

7. Total yards/game in a season

8. Points/game in a season

Oh, but Martinez did go 13 of 14 against Ark. St.

I hope Beck's offense never appears in 1, 2, 5, and 6 personally. Balance is a GOOD thing in an offense and those records don't say anything other than either we had no offensive balance or we beat up on a poor middle school kid. Case in point, Joe Ganz' record of 510 passing yards that will never be broken because Callahan was trying to save his job by throwing it all over the field and going for it on 4th and 20. That record means literally nothing.

As far as the rest, if we're only looking at the modern era, pretty much every single one of them is held by either the 1983 team or the 1995 team, one of the best all-time greatest offenses in the history of the sport and the actual greatest team in the history of the sport.

Nobody is saying Tim Beck is the greatest offensive coordinator even in the country right now, let alone in the history of college football. But he does have the #2 spot for total yards so

 

[JTrain]

I hope Beck's offense never appears in 1, 2, 5, and 6 personally. Balance is a GOOD thing in an offense and those records don't say anything other than either we had no offensive balance or we beat up on a poor middle school kid. Case in point, Joe Ganz' record of 510 passing yards that will never be broken because Callahan was trying to save his job by throwing it all over the field and going for it on 4th and 20. That record means literally nothing.

So balance is his go-to strength?

National Ranks

2011: Rushing 15th, Passing 104th

2012: Rushing 8th, Passing 88th

2013: Rushing 19th, Passing 95th

2014: Rushing 6th, Passing 78th

Nobody is saying Tim Beck is the greatest offensive coordinator even in the country right now, let alone in the history of college football.

No, but they are saying he is "breaking Osborne era rushing records and Callahan era passing records" "left and right" and even "pretty much all of them".

 

[Landlord]

So balance is his go-to strength?

2011: Rushing 15th, Passing 104th

2012: Rushing 8th, Passing 88th

2013:Rushing 19th, Passing 95th

2014: Rushing 6th, Passing 78th

2011: 217 rushing yards per game, 162 passing yards per game.

2012: 253 rushing yards per game, 207 passing yards per game.

2013: 215 rushing yards per game, 196 passing yards per game.

I don't know if you purposefully decided to use national rank statistics to try and discredit my point or not, since passing is a more popular option overall in college football and so a team that is 50/50 would obviously be further down the passing ranks than the rushing ones. But if it was on purpose then that's pretty disingenuous, and if it wasn't then it's just a plain stupid argument.

The number of teams nationally that average over 300 passing yards per game: 20

The number of teams nationally that average over 300 rushing yards per game: 6

Actually that makes Beck even better. Not only does he have good overall balance, but he still gives us an identity outside of the norm that is more difficult to prep for due to lack of familiarity by our opponents.

 

[JTrain]

No, I personally think the ranks are a much better indicator. A balanced team strives to be good in both areas and run a similar number of plays of both. A team that throws the ball 50% of plays and runs 50% of plays (balance) is going to have considerably more passing yards, since the average pass play nets more yards. This year we have 378 rushes versus 221 passes. That certainly is not balanced.

Given our averages, if we had 300 passes and 300 rushes, we would have 300 pypg and 233 rypg which would put our ranks at, guess what: 21st and 20th respectively.

On top of that, even if you only want to consider net yardage, it still hasn't been balanced outside 2013!

The fact that we have more rushing yards and rank very high in rushing while ranking very low in passing is not a good thing in my opinion. We should strive to have a much better passing attack.

But I guess it all goes back to my original point. The data can be used in attempt to justify just about any position. You argue that never having been in the top 75 FBS teams in passing offense actually "makes Beck even better"? OK, I don't buy it. But I won't stoop to calling your argument stupid.

 

[Landlord]

About halfway through I realized you were on a different side of the argument than I thought.

If I would like to see our offense go any direction it would be the same direction you do; towards more balance. Since the prevailing sentiment on here is that Beck still, somehow, passes too much or gets too cute with passing, usually the argument goes in defense of the passing game, so I guess in this case we're actually mostly on the same page.

Our offense isn't perfectly balanced but I would prefer it not be anyways. I think equal yards rushing and passing is a great place to (strive to) be, rather than equal attempts, but compared to Nebraska teams of old and compared to the current trends in college football, I like our relative balance.

 

[HuskerCarter]

I hope Beck's offense never appears in 1, 2, 5, and 6 personally. Balance is a GOOD thing in an offense and those records don't say anything other than either we had no offensive balance or we beat up on a poor middle school kid. Case in point, Joe Ganz' record of 510 passing yards that will never be broken because Callahan was trying to save his job by throwing it all over the field and going for it on 4th and 20. That record means literally nothing.

So balance is his go-to strength?

National Ranks

2011: Rushing 15th, Passing 104th

2012: Rushing 8th, Passing 88th

2013: Rushing 19th, Passing 95th

2014: Rushing 6th, Passing 78th

Nobody is saying Tim Beck is the greatest offensive coordinator even in the country right now, let alone in the history of college football.

No, but they are saying he is "breaking Osborne era rushing records and Callahan era passing records" "left and right" and even "pretty much all of them".

If anything those stats show me how well we compare to other teams when running the ball, and how poor we are when it comes to passing the ball.

Those stats don't prove balance, they prove how effective the run is and how ineffective the passing is at Nebraska.