Children and immigration reform

TGHusker

TGHusker

New member
Now children are becoming the pawn of both sides on immigration reform

A few links of the partisan divide

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/381589/obama-announces-less-interior-immigration-enforcement-joel-gehrke

http://www.cnsnews.com/mrctv-blog/eric-scheiner/sen-durbin-obama-will-borrow-power-solve-immigration

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-pledges-to-redirect-immigration-enforcement-conceding-defeat-on-overhaul/2014/06/30/40e69476-0083-11e4-8fd0-3a663dfa68ac_story.html?wpisrc=al_comboPN_p

To start the discussion:

1. What should we do with the kids that are here?

2. As Tschu said in another post - we need to concentrate on the issue and not the politics - therefore - What do you believe to be the best steps going forward?

3.. Are the repubs too beholding to the tea party contingency to get anything done on immigration reform? OR Are the repubs just concerned that illegals will become automatic dem voters and if so is this a legitimate concern?

4. What took the gov't soo long to recognize the children crossing issue and take action on this? By gov't I mean repub govenors, the adminstration and congress.

me:

1. I see no way in the world anyone can successfully re-unite all of the kids with all of their families. We cannot put them on a bus and let them step off to no one. I think, the govt should work wt the govts involved and try to find a way to get the kids back home. But what does back home look like?? It very well could be those very parents who placed the kids on the road to find a better life and who could not afford to take care of the kids. The countries from which the kids come from should be responsible for them. However that is the hard cold look. I know, however, the best possible life for those kids would be found here - if there was a way for them to be adopted by families or placed in good foster care - or find relatives here. I can't see life in a detention center of some kind here being beneficial for the kids. The detention centers have to be a short term solution. Best is to reunite them wt family or relatives,

2. Boarder control - real boarder control first. Then a comprehensive plan - regardless of concern if they become dems or repubs

3. Yes and Yes

4. Don't know - politics I'm sure.

 
1. To the extent possible, identify close family members in their countries of origin and send them back. Next, try to identify any family members living in the United States. If those are impossible, make arrangements for their long term legal residency here.

2. On immigration reform generally, there are two issues: preventing more illegal immigration, and what to do with those already here.

I detest the idea of rewarding lawbreaking, but deporting 10-20 million people is not a realistic solution and splitting up families is inhumane. There are three groups to deal with here: the easiest is the children of illegal immigrants born here. They are US citizens and should not have their rights and privileges as US citizens curtailed in any way. The next group is those brought to America as kids. I lean toward phased-in citizenship, in-state tuition, etc. They're not going anywhere, and they're going to live here for a long time, creating a semi-legal underclass isn't going to help anything. Finally, the adults who come here. For these people, I think citizenship needs to be permanently off the table. Provided they have not been convicted of any other crimes, I support issuing them permanent legal residence status at the cost of a fairly hefty fine and a forfeiture of any contributions to Social Security prior to their legalization.

Next, preventing more illegal immigration. There are two issues here: the ability and desire to come. First, ability. Border security can and must be better. There's been bipartisan collusion to prevent its effective enforcement, and that needs to stop. With as much money as we blow on just about everything under the sun, you can't tell me with a straight face that the border can't be secured. That's the language of people who don't want it secured.

The bigger issue though is desire to come. Believe it or not, immigrants aren't coming up here to ruin our WASP-y paradise, they're coming because things are much better comparatively speaking up here than they are down there. Two factors to address: push factors and pull factors. Push factors: instability and lack of economic opportunity. Solutions: work to stem the flow of drug money to Latin America (following Colorado and Washington state's lead would be a great start), make a concerted effort to improve economic conditions, be it through foreign aid, more free trade agreements, etc. Make Latin American countries a more inviting place to live. Pull factors: economic opportunity. Deter the use of illicit labor on the part of businesses, including fines and criminal penalties for repeat offenses. Also, raising the minimum wage by nearly 50% is only going to make the problem worse.

3. The politics are the fun part. Republicans should be for more immigration because their business interests like cheap labor. The Democrats should be against it because their union and minority bases dislike cheap low skilled labor. The positions are switched because both sides see a bonanza of votes for the Democrats in all this. It really is as simple as that, and it's shameful.

4. I believe the children thing is actually a fairly recent development. I haven't followed it much except what the World Herald has reported. In any case it's a tough one to deal with. The law, basic logistical problems, and our general sentimentality with regard to children make it a really complicated issue.

 
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Here is a simple and effective solution

1) Acknowledge we can't "arrest" ourselves out of the problem

2) Secure the border first. Regardless of reform, an unlocked gate will allow the problem to continue

3) Mandatory e-verify

4) Fines for companies that hire illegals (substantial)

5) Certain crimes (convictions) currently prohibit a person from adjusting and/or applying for status. Do criminal history checks (DNA/Prints) to identify those who are eligible. Creates jobs to administer the checks.

6) Those not eligible will be deported. Those who are eligible can apply

7) The best you can get as a "first generation" new plan is a lawful permanent resident. (Can't vote makes R happy, children will be able to makes D happy) Highest ever for R was 33% IIRC in 1988. 2 years after amnesty.

8) If you are convicted of one of the above crimes after the "new plan" you are placed into deportation.

9) You can not petition for family members to lawfully enter the US. Children, once 18 would be able to

10) Those arriving on a visa, post a bond. You over stay, the monies are used to support enforcement efforts/deportation etc

11) Citizenship gets derived from your parents. Stops pregnant women from trying to cross the desert.

12) The children are and have always been victims in this and other crimes. I can only imagine an increase in trafficked victims with no real way to ID, secure or re-unite them with family. Reform won't stop the human tidal wave. (not yet anyway) It will initially encourage and then get substantially worse. We haven't even started to see the effects yet or the tsunami as it were. (BP/CBP doing no enforcement as they are to busy providing humanitarian aid) Coyotes, smugglers, dope coming in, money and guns going out......

13)Get rid of all the visa's save education, work and visit.

Lastly, realize that BOTH sides give 2 craps reforming for the humanitarian reasons. Money and votes.

 
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LukeinNE said:
1. To the extent possible, identify close family members in their countries of origin and send them back. Next, try to identify any family members living in the United States. If those are impossible, make arrangements for their long term legal residency here.

2. On immigration reform generally, there are two issues: preventing more illegal immigration, and what to do with those already here.

I detest the idea of rewarding lawbreaking, but deporting 10-20 million people is not a realistic solution and splitting up families is inhumane. There are three groups to deal with here: the easiest is the children of illegal immigrants born here. They are US citizens and should not have their rights and privileges as US citizens curtailed in any way. The next group is those brought to America as kids. I lean toward phased-in citizenship, in-state tuition, etc. They're not going anywhere, and they're going to live here for a long time, creating a semi-legal underclass isn't going to help anything. Finally, the adults who come here. For these people, I think citizenship needs to be permanently off the table. Provided they have not been convicted of any other crimes, I support issuing them permanent legal residence status at the cost of a fairly hefty fine and a forfeiture of any contributions to Social Security prior to their legalization.

Next, preventing more illegal immigration. There are two issues here: the ability and desire to come. First, ability. Border security can and must be better. There's been bipartisan collusion to prevent its effective enforcement, and that needs to stop. With as much money as we blow on just about everything under the sun, you can't tell me with a straight face that the border can't be secured. That's the language of people who don't want it secured.

The bigger issue though is desire to come. Believe it or not, immigrants aren't coming up here to ruin our WASP-y paradise, they're coming because things are much better comparatively speaking up here than they are down there. Two factors to address: push factors and pull factors. Push factors: instability and lack of economic opportunity. Solutions: work to stem the flow of drug money to Latin America (following Colorado and Washington state's lead would be a great start), make a concerted effort to improve economic conditions, be it through foreign aid, more free trade agreements, etc. Make Latin American countries a more inviting place to live. Pull factors: economic opportunity. Deter the use of illicit labor on the part of businesses, including fines and criminal penalties for repeat offenses. Also, raising the minimum wage by nearly 50% is only going to make the problem worse.

3. The politics are the fun part. Republicans should be for more immigration because their business interests like cheap labor. The Democrats should be against it because their union and minority bases dislike cheap low skilled labor. The positions are switched because both sides see a bonanza of votes for the Democrats in all this. It really is as simple as that, and it's shameful.

4. I believe the children thing is actually a fairly recent development. I haven't followed it much except what the World Herald has reported. In any case it's a tough one to deal with. The law, basic logistical problems, and our general sentimentality with regard to children make it a really complicated issue.
Click to expand...
+1. Good post. I don't agree with it all but it's a lot more comprehensive than most immigration opinions.
 
when nobody is crossing it...

Nice job politically grandstanding when there are kids on the reservations and inner cities who could benefit from 1% of whats being spent on this sh*tshow.

 
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walksalone said:
when nobody is crossing it...

Nice job politically grandstanding when there are kids on the reservations and inner cities who could benefit from 1% of whats being spent on this sh*tshow.
Click to expand...
Hate to say it, but didn't even think of it in those terms. Great point. Not political either. I'll even throw in Appalachia as another crazy impoverished area that could use some help.

On a side note, I like your Goruck pics. Did my first back in Dec. Good livin

 
walksalone said:
when nobody is crossing it...
Click to expand...
If the standard is that the border is secure when nobody is crossing it then you're saying that we can never reform our immigration system.
That's fine as an opinion . . . but people need to own it. If people say that they will only reform immigration after the border is 100% secure they are saying that they will not reform immigration. No need to hide it.

 
On border security, Israel may be a good place to look:

While 9,570 citizens of various African countries entered Israel illegally in the first half of 2012, only 34 did the same in the first six months of 2013, after construction of the main section of the barrier was completed.
Click to expand...
That's a reduction in illegal crossings of over 99%. There are factors that would make our task a little trickier, namely heavily populated areas that at times are split by the border, and the border being almost 8 times larger than the Israeli-Egypt border, but I do think it's evidence that border barriers do have an effect, and that we can do better.

 
Any thoughts that neither party wants it secure? Folks want cheap labor, voters etc..... It would be easy to shut it down. Look at the physical crossings that were shut down under Van Raab when Kiki Camarena was murdered. It can be done. IMO, both sides choose not to.

Even as divided as this board is politically, I think all could agree on common sense, workable ways to at a minimum improve the border.

 
Lo country,

One question. You say you are for substantial fines for companies that hire illegals. What about the company that UN-knowingly hires them? E-varify is not perfect and anymore the documents these people present are almost impossible to tell they are fake.

As an employer, how am I supposed to guaranty I am not hiring an illegal? What I see happening is actually you will start seeing discrimination against Hispanics because companies don't want to get fined for hiring an illegal one.

 
I'm not convinced the Republican Party doesn't want it fixed because of cheap labor.

Someone using Hispanics for cheap labor is going to bd someone like a landscaper in Des Moines or a roofer in Los Angeles. Those people aren't major donors.

Large companies that are major donors don't use Hispanics for cheap labor.

I think the republicans problem is pandering to a low end voter that they have convinced Mexicans are a major problem and all major criminals that are going to take over our country.

The problem lies in that now that they have some people convinced of that, how politically can they turn around and vote something in that allows them to stay?

By pandering to some voters they have not given themselves the ability to be reasonable on the issue.

 
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BigRedBuster said:
Lo country,

One question. You say you are for substantial fines for companies that hire illegals. What about the company that UN-knowingly hires them? E-varify is not perfect and anymore the documents these people present are almost impossible to tell they are fake.

As an employer, how am I supposed to guaranty I am not hiring an illegal? What I see happening is actually you will start seeing discrimination against Hispanics because companies don't want to get fined for hiring an illegal one.
Click to expand...
One would have to prove "knowingly" in regards to the hiring of illegals. The key would be for the Feds to provide the e-verify system to all businesses large or small. This would assist in taking the onus off the business owner and onto the govt to maintain the database ref the SSN and identifiers. If the proper forms were complete (I-9) and the person showed documentation that would be a start. It is a criminal charge if a person were to make a false claim of "being a USC". Maybe this starts needed to be charged a lot more to cut down on the falsifying of employment docs. A "two pronged approach". Again, we don't need new laws, just use the ones we have.

With todays technology, it is hard to determine the validity of ID's. E-verify would be a great place to start.

 
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