Democrats.. liars or did they see something else?

BigRedBuster said:
@Bornhusker I actually think it's perfectly appropriate to point out hypocritical politicians.  I think these questions should be asked all the time when it happens.

Similar to asking Republicans why they first proposed many of the portions of the ACA that they now are totally distraught over as being unconstitutional and destroying American lives.

Similar to asking Trump and his supporters about him, not that long ago, supporting Obama's statements on gun control, abortion rights, using immigrant labor in his businesses, supporting both Clintons for President and defending them against accusations only to turn around in his election and call her a criminal and said he would put her in jail......only to totally turn against that notion again when elected?

How about Trump claiming his accusers are lying only to turn around and act like he supports accusers of other famous people?

How about the Republicans doing everything they could to cause a government shut down and not working with Democrats to prevent it.....only to turn tail on the issue now that they are in power and blame Democrats for being horrible people and possibly causing a government shut down?  And....obviously vise versa on this with the Democrats.

Hey....I'm fine getting all the double talk and hypocritical statements and actions on the table.
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+1  This is an unassailable (and non-partisan) argument.

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I agree with a number of you.. I don't care if the pres is a democrat or a repub.. I want them to start working for US, not for their own benefit. i think that is one hiuge reason Trump is getting so much flack. Despite his faults, he is doing things outside of the establishment from both sides and they don't like it.

We can argue the good and bad all day, but the fact of the matter is they don't like him there because he is threatening their established way.

THAT is a good thing in my book!

 
Bornhusker said:
I agree with a number of you.. I don't care if the pres is a democrat or a repub.. I want them to start working for US, not for their own benefit. i think that is one hiuge reason Trump is getting so much flack. Despite his faults, he is doing things outside of the establishment from both sides and they don't like it.

We can argue the good and bad all day, but the fact of the matter is they don't like him there because he is threatening their established way.

THAT is a good thing in my book!
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Sometimes things are established for a good reason. Like norms, ethics, decorum, you know things that make us better.

 
Bornhusker said:
[...]  the fact of the matter is they don't like him there because he is threatening their established way.

THAT is a good thing in my book!
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That was my hope when he was elected, and the one thing I consoled myself with.  I thought, "maybe he will actually make good on his promise to break up the establishment, and the corruption in washington.  The stranglehold that lobbyists for business interests have on American politics.

The only thing he has done in that regard is to INCREASE the voice of big business and big industry special interests.  He has also INCREASED and exacerbated the partisan divide through childish twitter bullying.  The only politicians on the Right that he attacks are anyone who opposes him personally.  There are plenty of corrupt politicians he is just fine with, as long as they play nice with him.

 
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Bornhusker said:
I agree with a number of you.. I don't care if the pres is a democrat or a repub.. I want them to start working for US, not for their own benefit. i think that is one hiuge reason Trump is getting so much flack. Despite his faults, he is doing things outside of the establishment from both sides and they don't like it.

We can argue the good and bad all day, but the fact of the matter is they don't like him there because he is threatening their established way.

THAT is a good thing in my book!
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Are you still talking about the press? They, as organizations, like Trump plenty. The headlines write themselves, and subscriptions and ratings are way way up with a Trump oval office, because the man is just inherently absurd.

They, as people, sans Fox News/Breitbart/The Daily Caller/whoever, probably don't like him as individuals, because he is threatening their established way of 1) Freedom of the press, 2) Democracy, 3) Decency.

 
Landlord said:
Are you still talking about the press? They, as organizations, like Trump plenty. The headlines write themselves, and subscriptions and ratings are way way up with a Trump oval office, because the man is just inherently absurd.

They, as people, sans Fox News/Breitbart/The Daily Caller/whoever, probably don't like him as individuals, because he is threatening their established way of 1) Freedom of the press, 2) Democracy, 3) Decency.
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lol

 
So it's a good thing to threaten the established way thru Twitter rants, attacking gold star widows, nominating devastatingly unqualified people for important posts and saying Nazi's are very fine people? 

 
Don't forget corruption!

Trump himself is corrupt. He keeps dollars flowing into Trump org coffers by golfing every weekend & charging Secret Service ridiculous rates for golf carts. He pushed strongly for a tax bill that saved himself tons of money while screwing us over. The government actively encourages foreign diplomats & officials to use Trump properties while here.

His cabinet is just as corrupt. Scott Pruitt built himself a $25,000 soundproof booth in his office on our dime. Betsy Davos has a long history of pushing charter schools to personally benefit from her investments in them. Ryan ZInke likes using government-funded planes for private travel & of course who can forget the massive $300M sweetheart deal his neighbors got to screw up power recovery in Puerto Rico. Steve Mnuchin & his wife took a government plane to KY to watch the solar eclipse from the top of Fort Knox. Oh, and this:

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If you care about corruption,  this administration has turned it up to 11 & broken the dial off.

 
knapplc said:
Exactly, BRB.  These people ostensibly work for us, so holding them accountable is perfectly fine. 

Of course, what I really want is Moderates in power, promulgating reasonable laws that benefit as many Americans as possible.  Some Republicans fit that description, as do some Democrats.  The Bernies and Pelosis of the political world are not compatible with that definition any more than the McConnells or Ryans.  Whoever's in charge, it's our responsibility as Citizens to watch them, and to protest when they break troth with Americans.
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Problem is, the centerline for moderation has moved so far to the right in the last 20 years that we need responsible progressives to nudge it back where it belongs. Hilary Clinton was a habitual centrist and I think she actually suffered from it. The right likes to pillory Nancy Pelosi as a liberal, but she's takes money from the same lobbyists as the Republicans, and was willing to compromise along with the best of them back when this wasn't a binary system. 

Bernie Sanders is a different animal. He's portrayed as an extremist for advancing ideas like single payer healthcare and free college tuition, but Sanders and others are able to back up genuine policy initiatives with surprisingly plausible cost/benefit numbers. Back in 2009, when Americans were polled on potential healthcare systems, 60+ percent thought Single Payer was the way to go --- because it was clearly explained to them. When opponents screamed Socialized Medicine!, a reasonable law that would benefit as many Americans as possible was suddenly marginalized as extremist.

If Democrats serve up a slate of moderates promoting their willingness to compromise, I think they'll lose the moment the midterms are providing. I think a big part of holding Democrats accountable is reminding them how uninspiring the party establishment has been. 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
Problem is, the centerline for moderation has moved so far to the right in the last 20 years that we need responsible progressives to nudge it back where it belongs. Hilary Clinton was a habitual centrist and I think she actually suffered from it. The right likes to pillory Nancy Pelosi as a liberal, but she's takes money from the same lobbyists as the Republicans, and was willing to compromise along with the best of them back when this wasn't a binary system. 

Bernie Sanders is a different animal. He's portrayed as an extremist for advancing ideas like single payer healthcare and free college tuition, but Sanders and others are able to back up genuine policy initiatives with surprisingly plausible cost/benefit numbers. Back in 2009, when Americans were polled on potential healthcare systems, 60+ percent thought Single Payer was the way to go --- because it was clearly explained to them. When opponents screamed Socialized Medicine!, a reasonable law that would benefit as many Americans as possible was suddenly marginalized as extremist.

If Democrats serve up a slate of moderates promoting their willingness to compromise, I think they'll lose the moment the midterms are providing. I think a big part of holding Democrats accountable is reminding them how uninspiring the party establishment has been. 
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Guy,  what names should the dems put forward in 2020 in your opinion.  Who is progressive enough wtout being seen as a wild eye liberal that could move the ball more towards 'true moderate'?

 
I don't know. 

Bernie Sanders was an elderly card-carrying Socialist with little name recognition and no electoral base, and his appeal was surprisingly broad. Might well have beaten Trump in the general. 

I think the lesson wasn't so much about ideology and political wings, it was the appeal of candidates who rejected Business as Usual. In some ways, it's just about new faces, not people who've been paying their dues in the party machine and believe themselves entitled to the job.  I think we'll see some smart, honest and inspiring newcomers on the local level in the midterms. Some might call them Progressives, but they'll just be reasonable folks with reasonable agendas. Hopefully some of them are Republicans.

I don't see the DNC doing anything fresh or populist for 2020. I think the grassroots will surprise us with someone, and perhaps the DNC will get out of its own way.

Guess I'm saying the best person for the job in 2020 is somebody we're not talking about yet. 

 
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