Denying science in the classroom

[RedDenver]

Once the Bible becomes invalid, the discussion ends, for all intents and purposes.

Following the line of thinking that makes the Bible invalid, wherein it's invalid as soon as certain parts of it aren't supposed to be taken as 'true', does that same rationale apply to other things?

Don't misrepresent my argument so you can make a straw man.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

Religion isn't a thing that can be blamed for human actions. Religion is a human construct. It is no more to blame for bad actions than sport, nationalism, politics, love, money, or anything else humans create to explain their existence.

Religion is not inherently bad. Like a spoon or a pillow, it can be misused for bad things. But by its nature it is not bad.

Blaming religion for anything is a copout. It's humans who are to blame. Every time.

I disagree. Blaming religion, and the people who commit violent acts in their religion's name, is warranted.
For example, Let's say I am not religious at all but I am searching for meaning. I pick up a New King James Bible, the Quran, or some other similar holy book. Further, had never really thought of, or considered, that being gay was "wrong." I always thought, meh, it's not for me but if someone is, that's their orientation. In addition, I've never thought that anyone who believes differently than I do is necessarily wrong. Then religion gets ahold of me. Suddenly, anyone who doesn't believe what I do, is "going to hell" or they are a sinner and need to repent to "their god." (Because everyone else's god is the wrong one.)

Religion, just took someone who was formerly not a bigot and twisted them into one. So yes, you can absolutely blame religion.

And yes, I am talking almost exclusively about the religious crazies who take their religion too far.

Tell me which religion, as a base core tenet is promoting bigotry and hatred. Not some perverted offshoot or some band of crazies like Westbrook but an actual religion that pushes this. I bet if you consider it completely you will find that people are the real problem. I might be open to revising my thoughts if you can convince me this bigotry and hatred only manifests from religion and is not found in any other source.

Over the course of this thread, I think its been concluded, by the Christian posters that everyone has their own interpretation of God and their own interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, we can conclude that there is no correct way to practice the religion. The only person on this thread saying the Bible is as and God is as, is Knapp and he is being crucified for it. The only thing people have agreed on in this thread is that Jesus is the son of God and the savior of the world. Other than that, Christianity is practiced by each person in their own interpretation.

So lets take the WBC for example since most people have heard of them. Their interpretation of the religion is Old Testament. They believe God is a hateful, vengeful and malicious, just like the God of the Old Testament. That's what they believe and that is what their pastors teach. So yes, they are promoting bigotry and hatred. And because Christianity is apparently open for interpretation, you can conclude that their way is not necessarily wrong, it is just interpreted differently from others. Instead of teaching love and forgiveness like most churches, they hold up signs and funerals telling family members their loved one is burning in hell.

So yes, I will agree with you that most churches/pastors teach the Gospel and not the OT. But if you look hard enough you can find groups other than WBC and individuals who promote hate and bigotry. Most of those people believe and practice with a literal interpretation of the bible.

Would these people be loving and productive members of society without religion? Who knows. Some would be and some would probably still be hateful pieces of sh#t. But if these children that are standing out and holding hateful signs and being taught every week to hate people were growing up in loving and productive families instead, they'd have a better chance of turning out to be amazing people with or without religion.

 

[Landlord]

^ Groups like Westboro are actually the natural outcome of the kinds of belief systems put forward by knapp. "If the Bible is to be trusted, then it has to all be literally true, in the context that we as 21st century Americans read it." Well how do we read it in a straight forwarded literal sense? We read that God is a genocidal maniac ready to strike out at any time in wrath.

If you give the texts a proper shake, though, you can come to a very reasonable conclusion that the God of the OT was presented in a way that ancient near eastern people would have understood God - namely, a being concerned with their military might and the acquisition of land. Same thing with the Ark of the Covenant - God dwelt inside the arc, because that was the sort of thing that different gods did around Mesopatamia back then. The Bible is a constantly, highly contextualized dialogue about what exactly this God really is, and the culmination is in Jesus, who preached love, grace, forgiveness, and non-violence.

 

[knapplc]

Once the Bible becomes invalid, the discussion ends, for all intents and purposes.

Following the line of thinking that makes the Bible invalid, wherein it's invalid as soon as certain parts of it aren't supposed to be taken as 'true', does that same rationale apply to other things?

Don't misrepresent my argument so you can make a straw man.

Perhaps you didn't. It seemed to say something else when I first read it.

I misread it and offered a mea culpa. What more should I have done?

 

[Ratt Mhule]

We should just do away with the OT then. That seems like the only logical thing to do in the times we are living in now since none of that stuff applies to us and it only brings about problems.

 

[Landlord]

We should just do away with the OT then. That seems like the only logical thing to do in the times we are living in now since none of that stuff applies to us and it only brings about problems.

No, we should learn from it, and not be intellectually lazy in approaching it. That's one of the things that I've always found funny - atheists and fundamentalists both generally treat the Bible with the same, lame literalism

 

[knapplc]

^ Groups like Westboro are actually the natural outcome of the kinds of belief systems put forward by knapp. "If the Bible is to be trusted, then it has to all be literally true, in the context that we as 21st century Americans read it." Well how do we read it in a straight forwarded literal sense? We read that God is a genocidal maniac ready to strike out at any time in wrath.

If the only thing you get from a literal reading of the Bible is that God is a genocidal maniac, you may need to re-read it.

The Westboro Baptists are nutters. They aren't a product of anyone's belief system but their own. Putting that on me is a way of minimizing my argument and it's intellectually unfair.

If you give the texts a proper shake, though, you can come to a very reasonable conclusion that the God of the OT was presented in a way that ancient near eastern people would have understood God - namely, a being concerned with their military might and the acquisition of land. Same thing with the Ark of the Covenant - God dwelt inside the arc, because that was the sort of thing that different gods did around Mesopatamia back then. The Bible is a constantly, highly contextualized dialogue about what exactly this God really is, and the culmination is in Jesus, who preached love, grace, forgiveness, and non-violence.

You could also come to the very reasonable conclusion that the god of the Old Testament is no different than any other god of the region, that he changed and took on forms of other religions as the Hebrews were influenced by them, and that following a progression of their history and the religions of the peoples they interacted with shows that their god is no more real than Baal, Ammon, or any other god of the time.

 

[Landlord]

^ Groups like Westboro are actually the natural outcome of the kinds of belief systems put forward by knapp. "If the Bible is to be trusted, then it has to all be literally true, in the context that we as 21st century Americans read it." Well how do we read it in a straight forwarded literal sense? We read that God is a genocidal maniac ready to strike out at any time in wrath.

If the only thing you get from a literal reading of the Bible is that God is a genocidal maniac, you may need to re-read it.

The Westboro Baptists are nutters. They aren't a product of anyone's belief system but their own. Putting that on me is a way of minimizing my argument and it's intellectually unfair.

If you give the texts a proper shake, though, you can come to a very reasonable conclusion that the God of the OT was presented in a way that ancient near eastern people would have understood God - namely, a being concerned with their military might and the acquisition of land. Same thing with the Ark of the Covenant - God dwelt inside the arc, because that was the sort of thing that different gods did around Mesopatamia back then. The Bible is a constantly, highly contextualized dialogue about what exactly this God really is, and the culmination is in Jesus, who preached love, grace, forgiveness, and non-violence.

You could also come to the very reasonable conclusion that the god of the Old Testament is no different than any other god of the region, that he changed and took on forms of other religions as the Hebrews were influenced by them, and that following a progression of their history and the religions of the peoples they interacted with shows that their god is no more real than Baal, Ammon, or any other god of the time.

To your first point, that's not the only thing you can get from that approach, but it's definitely one of the things you get.

To your second point, I agree.

 

[The Dude]

Religion isn't a thing that can be blamed for human actions. Religion is a human construct. It is no more to blame for bad actions than sport, nationalism, politics, love, money, or anything else humans create to explain their existence.

Religion is not inherently bad. Like a spoon or a pillow, it can be misused for bad things. But by its nature it is not bad.

Blaming religion for anything is a copout. It's humans who are to blame. Every time.

I disagree. Blaming religion, and the people who commit violent acts in their religion's name, is warranted.
For example, Let's say I am not religious at all but I am searching for meaning. I pick up a New King James Bible, the Quran, or some other similar holy book. Further, had never really thought of, or considered, that being gay was "wrong." I always thought, meh, it's not for me but if someone is, that's their orientation. In addition, I've never thought that anyone who believes differently than I do is necessarily wrong. Then religion gets ahold of me. Suddenly, anyone who doesn't believe what I do, is "going to hell" or they are a sinner and need to repent to "their god." (Because everyone else's god is the wrong one.)

Religion, just took someone who was formerly not a bigot and twisted them into one. So yes, you can absolutely blame religion.

You're just blaming humans. Take religion out of the equation and humans still do this stuff.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what Chimichangas is kind of saying is that religion can influence people's thoughts and beliefs. Which in turn can influence their actions.

Which is true.

You seem to be saying people do bad things even without religious influence - even if religion was never invented people would still do bad things.

Which is also true.

These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Not to pile on or anything. I've agreed with the majority of your salient points in this thread, but I think you're kind of talking past him on this one.

 

[Mierin]

Over the course of this thread, I think its been concluded, by the Christian posters that everyone has their own interpretation of God and their own interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, we can conclude that there is no correct way to practice the religion. The only person on this thread saying the Bible is as and God is as, is Knapp and he is being crucified for it. The only thing people have agreed on in this thread is that Jesus is the son of God and the savior of the world. Other than that, Christianity is practiced by each person in their own interpretation.

So lets take the WBC for example since most people have heard of them. Their interpretation of the religion is Old Testament. They believe God is a hateful, vengeful and malicious, just like the God of the Old Testament. That's what they believe and that is what their pastors teach. So yes, they are promoting bigotry and hatred. And because Christianity is apparently open for interpretation, you can conclude that their way is not necessarily wrong, it is just interpreted differently from others. Instead of teaching love and forgiveness like most churches, they hold up signs and funerals telling family members their loved one is burning in hell.

So yes, I will agree with you that most churches/pastors teach the Gospel and not the OT. But if you look hard enough you can find groups other than WBC and individuals who promote hate and bigotry. Most of those people believe and practice with a literal interpretation of the bible.

To the bolded, no, it's the opposite of that. There are many ways to practice the religion and interpret the Bible that don't lead to going to hell (and are therefore correct). I've said over and over that I don't think God is petty enough to send people to hell over misunderstanding this or that verse in The Bible.
To the rest... I don't follow the logic. Anyone who hurts people because religion told them to is wrong. Morality doesn't come just from religion. Hurting people is wrong.

 

[knapplc]

Religion isn't a thing that can be blamed for human actions. Religion is a human construct. It is no more to blame for bad actions than sport, nationalism, politics, love, money, or anything else humans create to explain their existence.

Religion is not inherently bad. Like a spoon or a pillow, it can be misused for bad things. But by its nature it is not bad.

Blaming religion for anything is a copout. It's humans who are to blame. Every time.

I disagree. Blaming religion, and the people who commit violent acts in their religion's name, is warranted.
For example, Let's say I am not religious at all but I am searching for meaning. I pick up a New King James Bible, the Quran, or some other similar holy book. Further, had never really thought of, or considered, that being gay was "wrong." I always thought, meh, it's not for me but if someone is, that's their orientation. In addition, I've never thought that anyone who believes differently than I do is necessarily wrong. Then religion gets ahold of me. Suddenly, anyone who doesn't believe what I do, is "going to hell" or they are a sinner and need to repent to "their god." (Because everyone else's god is the wrong one.)

Religion, just took someone who was formerly not a bigot and twisted them into one. So yes, you can absolutely blame religion.

You're just blaming humans. Take religion out of the equation and humans still do this stuff.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what Chimichangas is kind of saying is that religion can influence people's thoughts and beliefs. Which in turn can influence their actions.

Which is true.

You seem to be saying people do bad things even without religious influence - even if religion was never invented people would still do bad things.

Which is also true.

These two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Not to pile on or anything. I've agreed with the majority of your salient points in this thread, but I think you're kind of talking past him on this one.

Maybe. I think I do that a lot, not necessarily intentionally.

I just think blaming religion (or guns, or drugs, or gambling) doesn't get to the root of the problem. All of those things are fine, but all can be abused.

Rather than point a finger at religion, I think we're better served examining what it is in humans that makes them take something that ostensibly should be a force for good and makes them turn it into an instrument of harm.

 

[Ratt Mhule]

Over the course of this thread, I think its been concluded, by the Christian posters that everyone has their own interpretation of God and their own interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, we can conclude that there is no correct way to practice the religion. The only person on this thread saying the Bible is as and God is as, is Knapp and he is being crucified for it. The only thing people have agreed on in this thread is that Jesus is the son of God and the savior of the world. Other than that, Christianity is practiced by each person in their own interpretation.

So lets take the WBC for example since most people have heard of them. Their interpretation of the religion is Old Testament. They believe God is a hateful, vengeful and malicious, just like the God of the Old Testament. That's what they believe and that is what their pastors teach. So yes, they are promoting bigotry and hatred. And because Christianity is apparently open for interpretation, you can conclude that their way is not necessarily wrong, it is just interpreted differently from others. Instead of teaching love and forgiveness like most churches, they hold up signs and funerals telling family members their loved one is burning in hell.

So yes, I will agree with you that most churches/pastors teach the Gospel and not the OT. But if you look hard enough you can find groups other than WBC and individuals who promote hate and bigotry. Most of those people believe and practice with a literal interpretation of the bible.

To the bolded, no, it's the opposite of that. There are many ways to practice the religion and interpret the Bible that don't lead to going to hell (and are therefore correct). I've said over and over that I don't think God is petty enough to send people to hell over misunderstanding this or that verse in The Bible.
To the rest... I don't follow the logic. Anyone who hurts people because religion told them to is wrong. Morality doesn't come just from religion. Hurting people is wrong.

Good, Im glad people who misunderstand the Bible will not be damned to hell. But someone like me, never committed a crime, work in healthcare helping people for a living and live my life by the golden rule will be damned to hell for an eternity of torture. When I was once a devout follower of Christ. God wanted to test my faith so he planted all these questions in my head then he didn't help me find the answers, and now Im going to hell with people such as Hitler, Castro and Osama Bin Laden . That's pretty f'd up.

 

[Redux]

Religion isn't a thing that can be blamed for human actions. Religion is a human construct. It is no more to blame for bad actions than sport, nationalism, politics, love, money, or anything else humans create to explain their existence. Religion is not inherently bad. Like a spoon or a pillow, it can be misused for bad things. But by its nature it is not bad. Blaming religion for anything is a copout. It's humans who are to blame. Every time.

I disagree. Blaming religion, and the people who commit violent acts in their religion's name, is warranted. For example, Let's say I am not religious at all but I am searching for meaning. I pick up a New King James Bible, the Quran, or some other similar holy book. Further, had never really thought of, or considered, that being gay was "wrong." I always thought, meh, it's not for me but if someone is, that's their orientation. In addition, I've never thought that anyone who believes differently than I do is necessarily wrong. Then religion gets ahold of me. Suddenly, anyone who doesn't believe what I do, is "going to hell" or they are a sinner and need to repent to "their god." (Because everyone else's god is the wrong one.) Religion, just took someone who was formerly not a bigot and twisted them into one. So yes, you can absolutely blame religion.

You're just blaming humans. Take religion out of the equation and humans still do this stuff.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I think what Chimichangas is kind of saying is that religion can influence people's thoughts and beliefs. Which in turn can influence their actions.Which is true.You seem to be saying people do bad things even without religious influence - even if religion was never invented people would still do bad things.Which is also true.These two things aren't mutually exclusive.Not to pile on or anything. I've agreed with the majority of your salient points in this thread, but I think you're kind of talking past him on this one.

Maybe. I think I do that a lot, not necessarily intentionally.I just think blaming religion (or guns, or drugs, or gambling) doesn't get to the root of the problem. All of those things are fine, but all can be abused.Rather than point a finger at religion, I think we're better served examining what it is in humans that makes them take something that ostensibly should be a force for good and makes them turn it into an instrument of harm.

"It's in your nature to destroy yourselves."

-The Terminator

 

[JJ Husker]

Over the course of this thread, I think its been concluded, by the Christian posters that everyone has their own interpretation of God and their own interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, we can conclude that there is no correct way to practice the religion. The only person on this thread saying the Bible is as and God is as, is Knapp and he is being crucified for it. The only thing people have agreed on in this thread is that Jesus is the son of God and the savior of the world. Other than that, Christianity is practiced by each person in their own interpretation.

So lets take the WBC for example since most people have heard of them. Their interpretation of the religion is Old Testament. They believe God is a hateful, vengeful and malicious, just like the God of the Old Testament. That's what they believe and that is what their pastors teach. So yes, they are promoting bigotry and hatred. And because Christianity is apparently open for interpretation, you can conclude that their way is not necessarily wrong, it is just interpreted differently from others. Instead of teaching love and forgiveness like most churches, they hold up signs and funerals telling family members their loved one is burning in hell.

So yes, I will agree with you that most churches/pastors teach the Gospel and not the OT. But if you look hard enough you can find groups other than WBC and individuals who promote hate and bigotry. Most of those people believe and practice with a literal interpretation of the bible.

To the bolded, no, it's the opposite of that. There are many ways to practice the religion and interpret the Bible that don't lead to going to hell (and are therefore correct). I've said over and over that I don't think God is petty enough to send people to hell over misunderstanding this or that verse in The Bible.
To the rest... I don't follow the logic. Anyone who hurts people because religion told them to is wrong. Morality doesn't come just from religion. Hurting people is wrong.

Good, Im glad people who misunderstand the Bible will not be damned to hell. But someone like me, never committed a crime, work in healthcare helping people for a living and live my life by the golden rule will be damned to hell for an eternity of torture. When I was once a devout follower of Christ. God wanted to test my faith so he planted all these questions in my head then he didn't help me find the answers, and now Im going to hell with people such as Hitler, Castro and Osama Bin Laden . That's pretty f'd up.

Don't worry Rike, I'm thinking (like AC/DC says) hell ain't a bad place to be. One widely held concept of hell is simply being absent the presence of God. It's not necessarily fire and brimstone and the gnashing of teeth. This might just be me running off the rails with my own thoughts again but I really don't think God the creator put us in this situation for 70-80ish years, with the odds of really knowing him so slim, just so he could torture us for all of eternity. Worst case, I'll be chillin' in my mansion sucking down Mai Tai's and you'll maybe be relegated to mixing the drinks in the basement

 

[Ratt Mhule]

Over the course of this thread, I think its been concluded, by the Christian posters that everyone has their own interpretation of God and their own interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, we can conclude that there is no correct way to practice the religion. The only person on this thread saying the Bible is as and God is as, is Knapp and he is being crucified for it. The only thing people have agreed on in this thread is that Jesus is the son of God and the savior of the world. Other than that, Christianity is practiced by each person in their own interpretation.

So lets take the WBC for example since most people have heard of them. Their interpretation of the religion is Old Testament. They believe God is a hateful, vengeful and malicious, just like the God of the Old Testament. That's what they believe and that is what their pastors teach. So yes, they are promoting bigotry and hatred. And because Christianity is apparently open for interpretation, you can conclude that their way is not necessarily wrong, it is just interpreted differently from others. Instead of teaching love and forgiveness like most churches, they hold up signs and funerals telling family members their loved one is burning in hell.

So yes, I will agree with you that most churches/pastors teach the Gospel and not the OT. But if you look hard enough you can find groups other than WBC and individuals who promote hate and bigotry. Most of those people believe and practice with a literal interpretation of the bible.

To the bolded, no, it's the opposite of that. There are many ways to practice the religion and interpret the Bible that don't lead to going to hell (and are therefore correct). I've said over and over that I don't think God is petty enough to send people to hell over misunderstanding this or that verse in The Bible.
To the rest... I don't follow the logic. Anyone who hurts people because religion told them to is wrong. Morality doesn't come just from religion. Hurting people is wrong.

Good, Im glad people who misunderstand the Bible will not be damned to hell. But someone like me, never committed a crime, work in healthcare helping people for a living and live my life by the golden rule will be damned to hell for an eternity of torture. When I was once a devout follower of Christ. God wanted to test my faith so he planted all these questions in my head then he didn't help me find the answers, and now Im going to hell with people such as Hitler, Castro and Osama Bin Laden . That's pretty f'd up.

Don't worry Rike, I'm thinking (like AC/DC says) hell ain't a bad place to be. One widely held concept of hell is simply being absent the presence of God. It's not necessarily fire and brimstone and the gnashing of teeth. This might just be me running off the rails with my own thoughts again but I really don't think God the creator put us in this situation for 70-80ish years, with the odds of really knowing him so slim, just so he could torture us for all of eternity. Worst case, I'll be chillin' in my mansion sucking down Mai Tai's and you'll maybe be relegated to mixing the drinks in the basement

"There are people in this world that drink the drinks and there are people in this world that pour the drinks. Me, Im the person who drinks the drinks."- Cartel boss from Breaking Bad