Gun Control

DefenderAO said:
The quote you have difficulty with is not complex from my perspective but seems confusing and foreign to you.

I suspect our home base here won't get us any closer to you understanding my point.

I won't rescind or walk back my assertions on the human condition and how that shows in today's America.  
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The narcissism in this post is pretty amazing. Yep, nobody understands except you.

 
I honestly don’t think tougher punishment t for gun crimes would do anything. 
 

If someone is going to take a gun into a school and shoot kids, they are doing it knowing they are going to die too…..and there’s what they want. 

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
You know what else is really helpful?  The link I sent you to a highly professional study on the subject.

But I will say this post suggests you are open to the perspectives of others, and might even concede that trans people could find happiness in their personal lives, much the way they operate with amicability and integrity in your workplace. 
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Sure, I think they can very well find happiness.

Let me make an even more bold statement.  No fluff.  No falsity.  No BS or hand waviness.  Guy - I cannot imagine what you're going through in your family.  This is no pity or feeling sorry for you.  I don't.  This is a statement, as a parent, I'm not sure I could handle it as well as you seem to be.  Your openness to bring it up here, your thoughtful posts (that rarely align with mine)...it's sincerely set apart as I see it.

We don't need to be friends or agree.  I don't need you to shun a fake olive branch this post may show as.  But I've been wanting to say this to you and haven't.  It's impressive and maybe beyond my capacity.  I do wish you well.  In all earnest.

I'm also going to slow responding here as I don't want to cause a further rift.  

 
DefenderAO said:
We'll agree to continually differ here.  Morality doesn't change nor does truth.  It's a flag-in-the-wind concept.  If you have moving truth and morality targets, what is the definition of right or wrong?  It can all sway, move, change.  And the expectancy there's never conflict or overlapping infringement, when one person is moving the truth target, is not realistic.   

I appreciate the aside on defending murderous sociopaths, but I never stated there were any doing so.  More pressingly, I asked what one would do with the ticking time bomb sociopaths I posted in earlier links.  This is rubber-meet-road.  We all want reform and to save lives.  

The quote you have difficulty with is not complex from my perspective but seems confusing and foreign to you.  I will contend, someone created as one gender, then deciding to transition to the opposite, does not find the sustaining joy they seek.  Possibly a reprieve from something, or some happiness, but not lasting joy.  Joy and happiness are different.  The former is not dependent on any external circumstance and roots in despite externals.  The Merriam dictionary is a mess on its definition - "good fortune on possessing what one desires (in part)" yet wealthy people are often some of the most empty, lonely people you'll meet.

I suspect our home base here won't get us any closer to you understanding my point.  It's fine.  I won't rescind or walk back my assertions on the human condition and how that shows in today's America.  

One place we will agree is we hope it improves.  
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I'm going to stick with your previous post, which revealed that you do indeed have the capacity to consider the views of others, find empathy for those with different paths, and evolve your truths as the data and experience changes. I'm glad you stopped by the Politics & Religion forum and used the feedback to learn and grow. 

 
DefenderAO said:
You believe your gun control measures will solve the problem mid-term?  What about short term for the psychopaths posting about murdering people?  Wait until ammo is taxed "out the wazoo?"  They seem to be actively ticking...

Your leap would be wrong. I've worked with three in the near term.  One of the three I knew before and after.  All were amicable and hard working.  I appreciated their acumen and high give-a-crap to get things done with integrity.  In a working context, that's more than many of us get from other employees.  Those three, for a couple reasons (time spent, as one) do not impact my assertions or reflect anything beyond driving work outcomes.  

Additionally, data is extremely helpful, hundreds of good conversations with a variety of demographic and socioeconomic people, reading, introspection.  I enjoy hearing others' perspectives and sharpening my understanding based upon these conversations.  

Also, I can empathize deeply with a relativistic world view.  I used to believe that way vehemently.    
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Again with the "it won't totally work so why do it?".  It may not stop things 100% ever but yes I do think that would be a deterrent.  I guess I didn't see where you were asking others (or providing yourself) with short/mid/long term solutions.  But I'll play. 

If we're sterotyping then Id say that many people that are psychopath mass murders don't have the money to pay a premium for bullets, don't have the finances to pay for insurance and training and don't want to waste time on waiting 3+ days to get a license and a gun.  

  • In the short term - create a task force to go arrest folks, question and remove guns from those making threats.  Make red flag laws a federal program.  Make psych wards and abuse centers report nationally and not allow those folks to buy.  Make aggressive moves on hate groups and organizations that are advocating violence.  Monitor social media and take immediate action on threats of any kind or hate speech of any kind that threatens others or groups.
  • In the mid term eliminate gun shows, put gunshops on warning and have them be licensed and insured and culpable if a gun sold in their shops is used in any sort of crime.  Do a national gun buy back program.  Hold gun manufacturers accountable for murders with their weapons.  Require annual licensing by the state and home inspection for safes and evaluations of home life and who has access to the guns,  Limit gun ownership to a max of 1 gun per person.  Repeal all open and concealed carry laws.
  • In the long term I think we need to be able to look at how the above work (and more I was spitballing ideas).  We know that prison time and death penalties don't work so there needs to be a total revamping of punishment but I don't know what that looks like.  



You say you know some transgender people from work, did they express to you that they had no joy in their lives?  You must work in a large organization to work with 3. I really think you're making assumptions on that statement and I find it demeaning and arrogant, and I' m confident that those coworkers wouldn't disagree with me.

I appreciate that you say you like learning and listening to others, and looking at data - I also appreciate that you've engaged here, and I hope that you consider the information and statistics and articles shared by so many.  This is a board of good people, many whose opinions and attitudes have changed dramatically since engaging with others here and really thinking about the "why" behind their views.  

 
DefenderAO said:
We'll agree to continually differ here.  Morality doesn't change nor does truth.  It's a flag-in-the-wind concept.  If you have moving truth and morality targets, what is the definition of right or wrong?  It can all sway, move, change.  And the expectancy there's never conflict or overlapping infringement, when one person is moving the truth target, is not realistic.
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The thing that undermines this entire argument is that the entirety of human history has been us finding out that we're wrong about the things we think are true.

What's true and moral evolve over time as we learn more. Consider that literally everything you think is true is probably wrong in some way. Same is true for me or any of us. We can only go off what we learn and evolve and adapt to new information.

 
Guy Chamberlin said:
I'm going to stick with your previous post, which revealed that you do indeed have the capacity to consider the views of others, find empathy for those with different paths, and evolve your truths as the data and experience changes. I'm glad you stopped by the Politics & Religion forum and used the feedback to learn and grow. 
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:cheers

 
RedDenver said:
The thing that undermines this entire argument is that the entirety of human history has been us finding out that we're wrong about the things we think are true.

What's true and moral evolve over time as we learn more. Consider that literally everything you think is true is probably wrong in some way. Same is true for me or any of us. We can only go off what we learn and evolve and adapt to new information.
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Uncovering more doesn’t mean it changes. We’ll spend a lifetime learning. One example, for consensus, see clearly would be murder is wrong.  Stepping back just because something is widely accepted doesn’t make it good or right. 

 
NM11046 said:
Again with the "it won't totally work so why do it?".  It may not stop things 100% ever but yes I do think that would be a deterrent.  I guess I didn't see where you were asking others (or providing yourself) with short/mid/long term solutions.  But I'll play. 

If we're sterotyping then Id say that many people that are psychopath mass murders don't have the money to pay a premium for bullets, don't have the finances to pay for insurance and training and don't want to waste time on waiting 3+ days to get a license and a gun.  

  • In the short term - create a task force to go arrest folks, question and remove guns from those making threats.  Make red flag laws a federal program.  Make psych wards and abuse centers report nationally and not allow those folks to buy.  Make aggressive moves on hate groups and organizations that are advocating violence.  Monitor social media and take immediate action on threats of any kind or hate speech of any kind that threatens others or groups.
  • In the mid term eliminate gun shows, put gunshops on warning and have them be licensed and insured and culpable if a gun sold in their shops is used in any sort of crime.  Do a national gun buy back program.  Hold gun manufacturers accountable for murders with their weapons.  Require annual licensing by the state and home inspection for safes and evaluations of home life and who has access to the guns,  Limit gun ownership to a max of 1 gun per person.  Repeal all open and concealed carry laws.
  • In the long term I think we need to be able to look at how the above work (and more I was spitballing ideas).  We know that prison time and death penalties don't work so there needs to be a total revamping of punishment but I don't know what that looks like.  



You say you know some transgender people from work, did they express to you that they had no joy in their lives?  You must work in a large organization to work with 3. I really think you're making assumptions on that statement and I find it demeaning and arrogant, and I' m confident that those coworkers wouldn't disagree with me.

I appreciate that you say you like learning and listening to others, and looking at data - I also appreciate that you've engaged here, and I hope that you consider the information and statistics and articles shared by so many.  This is a board of good people, many whose opinions and attitudes have changed dramatically since engaging with others here and really thinking about the "why" behind their views.  
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Good thoughts and agree. There’s strong passion and a wealth of experience and contexts we don’t all live out. 
 

I appreciate the sharpening. 

 
DefenderAO said:
Uncovering more doesn’t mean it changes. We’ll spend a lifetime learning. One example, for consensus, see clearly would be murder is wrong.  Stepping back just because something is widely accepted doesn’t make it good or right. 
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Uncovering more doesn't always mean things change but it can sometimes mean you learn you were wrong.

Thought experiment: Imagine you wake up tomorrow realizing (or God shows up and tells you or whatever would be convincing for you) that transgender people are not sick and instead it's entirely natural. You've just learned that your previous morality is wrong and needs to change.

 
BigRedBuster said:
I honestly don’t think tougher punishment t for gun crimes would do anything. 
 

If someone is going to take a gun into a school and shoot kids, they are doing it knowing they are going to die too…..and there’s what they want. 
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LOL, sorry but picking an example of someone who obviously knows they will die commuting the crime they are choosing to commit isn’t much a position argument.  
 

if someone knows they get a mandatory 20 yr sentence for armed burglary, it might.   If someone gets 20 yr mandatory term for walking around with concealed illegal handgun just for possession of it, they may choose not to do so. 

 
Archy1221 said:
LOL, sorry but picking an example of someone who obviously knows they will die commuting the crime they are choosing to commit isn’t much a position argument.  
 

if someone knows they get a mandatory 20 yr sentence for armed burglary, it might.   If someone gets 20 yr mandatory term for walking around with concealed illegal handgun just for possession of it, they may choose not to do so. 
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We're talking about mass shootings, particularly at schools since it's become extremely common. That's a relevant example that we need to deal with.

 
RedDenver said:
Uncovering more doesn't always mean things change but it can sometimes mean you learn you were wrong.

Thought experiment: Imagine you wake up tomorrow realizing (or God shows up and tells you or whatever would be convincing for you) that transgender people are not sick and instead it's entirely natural. You've just learned that your previous morality is wrong and needs to change.
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Fair, and even more pragmatically. If I would spent as much time working on my own mess as I did in discussion here, truth is I might be a little better off with all the mess I the I am.  Not a throw dirt on my head comment. But true nonetheless. 

 
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