Is Charles Krauthammer serious?

[knapplc]

And I have shown that it's not representative of the intent or coverage of Tebow, but you're welcome to your opinion and I do not grudge you your perspective.

 

[JJ Husker]

The problem in this discussion is not that a person like Krauthammer feels that the Tebow story is a good message and much better than the scores of stories about famous athletes who have gone astray. The problem is the people who know so little about religion that they think an allpowerful God should cure all illness and make life completely painless or those who think God helps athletes become rich and famous. People that understand Christianity and people like Tebow understand that Tebow is giving glory to God and not only doing it for what he gets in return. Only a non-believer could view it as God helping an athlete and withholding help from what would appear to be more worthy cases. Might I suggest you study up on free will and regularly attend some church services if you really want to understand how actual Christians view it and the message they receive. You've got it all wrong so it's no wonder you don't understand how it works.

I agree but I think you wrote this statement wrong. I don't thinnk Christians expect anything form God but love so I believe Tim expects nothing back. When he does do something worthwhile he knows it couldn't be done without God giving him the ability; NOT DOING IT FOR HIM!! chuckleshuffle

I agree, I could have worded it better. You said what I really meant much better than I did.

 

[Sub-Husker]

And I have shown that it's not representative of the intent or coverage of Tebow, but you're welcome to your opinion and I do not grudge you your perspective.

We can each evaluate intent in our own way.

I have found three types of intent... those that admire his athletic ability... those that admire his Christainity... and those that want to make an anti-abortion statement.

Since this conversation started about the very conservative but Jewish non-athlete Krauthammer, I dwelled on the anti-abortion aspect.

 

[JJ Husker]

And I have shown that it's not representative of the intent or coverage of Tebow, but you're welcome to your opinion and I do not grudge you your perspective.

We can each evaluate intent in our own way.

I have found three types of intent... those that admire his athletic ability... those that admire his Christainity... and those that want to make an anti-abortion statement.

Since this conversation started about the very conservative but Jewish non-athlete Krauthammer, I dwelled on the anti-abortion aspect.

Actually there is 4th type. I admire him for the type of person he seems to strive to be. I admire the amount of effort he puts into being an athlete but not necessarily the end result. I admire that he is not ashamed to make his Christian beliefs known but not necessarily because he is a Christian. I don't really relate him to any anti-abortion statement other than the commercial he did last year for the Superbowl and I actually felt that was a well stated, low key, deal compared to what was anticipated by all of the pro-abortion crowd. I must mention that I live in the Denver area and so am a fairweather Broncos fan. Personally I am tired of hearing about Tebowmania but I attribute that over saturation to a bunch of news and sports reporters that try to sensationalize anything. I can't blame Tebow for the way other people want to cover him.

 

[Roark]

I am not agreeing with you (not sure where you got that idea). But, I also saw nothing in your links that mentioned Lin or that stated Krauthammer thought Tebow was "chosen" by God. I would not necessarily agree that God chose Tebow for anything.

This whole conversation is based on the premise that I witnessed Krauthammer say these things on "Special Report" recently. I only included the link because it shows that he had said similar things in the past.

3- I don't believe "he will use his almighty power (which he used all the time in the Hebrew Bible) to help American celebrities". That is just so strange, I can't even comment further. Just remember, simply because another human being claims it to be the case, doesn't mean that's the way it works or that others share that belief.

Yes, it is strange. That's why I found it extremely odd coming from the mouth of a highly "touted" individual such as Mr. Krauthammer. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Also,

I'm a Catholic (Protestant for the first 25 yrs of my life) and a Christian and the things you have stated are not what I have been taught in the churches I have attended and I don't believe they are true for most believers.

1- I don't believe "that a god will deliver to you eternal damnation for not believeing in ancient word-of-mouth fables" In fact I believe that God knows what is every person heart and that your soul will be dealt with accordingly. I don't think not being exposed to some truths, not going to church, being the "wrong" religion, heck even being an atheist, will necessarily cause eternal damnation. I think God is smart enough to know what is right in every case and I can't believe that he put us on this earth only to fail at living up to some unreachable standard.

Seriously? You belong to the most dogmatic sect of Christianity and you believe that athiests and muslims can walk through the pearly gates holding hands?... Well, according to these Catholics you have to do a lot of things before you die to get into heaven: baptism, faith in Jesus, communion, etc.

 

[JJ Husker]

This whole conversation is based on the premise that I witnessed Krauthammer say these things on "Special Report" recently. I only included the link because it shows that he had said similar things in the past.

Yes, it is strange. That's why I found it extremely odd coming from the mouth of a highly "touted" individual such as Mr. Krauthammer. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Also,

Seriously? You belong to the most dogmatic sect of Christianity and you believe that athiests and muslims can walk through the pearly gates holding hands?... Well, according to these Catholics you have to do a lot of things before you die to get into heaven: baptism, faith in Jesus, communion, etc.

Ok, I will agree with you that, if Krauthammer said that, it is strange but, it is only his opinion. I still don't feel it is representative of most Christians (and Krauthammer is Jewish after all).

That Branham TX church website is a little on the hardcore side for me but, the little bit of it I read was technically correct for the position of the Roman Catholic church. I've really never seen it presented in such a harsh manner however. I can't help but feel you had some ulterior motive for selecting a site like that as opposed to another one. Is that church in your neighborhood or did you have to search a bit to find the Westboro Baptist church of the Catholic world?

My beliefs are somewhat complex and probably don't directly follow the doctrine of any particular religion. It does not surprise me that the Catholic church or probably most any Christian church does not teach that Muslims or atheists can get into heaven. I believe baptism and belief in Jesus as my savior is required for me and for others who have been sufficiently exposed to that message. But I also believe those things may not be required of a Muslim or atheist or whatever if they have not been exposed to it. I'm pretty sure God knows what to do in all cases and is not sadistic, as you stated, and won't hold lack of knowledge against a person. Do they teach that as doctrine in my church? No. Do I believe it anyway? Yes. However, for me, I still feel the Catholic church is the best fit and has it about as close to the way I think it is as anybody. I have no problem if another person feels Islam or Buddhism or whatever is best for them. Atheists is a little trickier but I think if a person has been forced away from the message of God, through no fault of their own, or has not been exposed to the message sufficiently, they may be ok. The ones I worry about are those who should know better or should have put a little more effort into it or who intentionally trash his name. But, I think the one true God is more than capable of sorting it all out. When you're an omniscient, omnipresent being, I don't think you have to operate under the constraints of any human rules. The way to salvation for one person is not necessarily the way for everyone but, I'm sticking with the way I know.

 

[Roark]

That Branham TX church website is a little on the hardcore side for me but, the little bit of it I read was technically correct for the position of the Roman Catholic church. I've really never seen it presented in such a harsh manner however. I can't help but feel you had some ulterior motive for selecting a site like that as opposed to another one. Is that church in your neighborhood or did you have to search a bit to find the Westboro Baptist church of the Catholic world?

Not at all. I simply googled something to the effect of "catholics, heaven, how to." It was completely arbitrary, and, quite frankly I found it rather on the light side for Catholicism. That church’s website didn't even have any mention of last rites, confession, mortal (deadly) sin, excommunication etc. I'm confident that you are in the minority with regard to your beliefs amongst Catholics.

I believe baptism and belief in Jesus as my savior is required for me and for others who have been sufficiently exposed to that message. But I also believe those things may not be required of a Muslim or atheist or whatever if they have not been exposed to it. I'm pretty sure God knows what to do in all cases and is not sadistic, as you stated, and won't hold lack of knowledge against a person.

So, really, missionaries are probably the most heartless people on the planet. Don't they know that once they expose these people to the "message," that those people will need to believe in Jesus and get baptized or else they'll go to hell? Why even risk it?

 

[JJ Husker]

That church’s website didn't even have any mention of last rites, confession, mortal (deadly) sin, excommunication etc. I'm confident that you are in the minority with regard to your beliefs amongst Catholics.

So, really, missionaries are probably the most heartless people on the planet. Don't they know that once they expose these people to the "message," that those people will need to believe in Jesus and get baptized or else they'll go to hell? Why even risk it?

I'm not asking you or anyone else to share my belief structure. I was only attempting to explain it to you. I would agree with you that I am probably in the minority and that many of my personal feelings are not shared by other Catholics. But, the issues where it appears I diverge from mainstream teachings, in my mind, are additional beliefs and don't require not also accepting what the church teaches. However, it does take extraordinary faith in a higher power to be able to understand them without getting hung up on issues such as your missionary example. It also allows me to not get hung up on things such as last rites, confession, infant death before baptism, etc. If you truly believe in God and really accept that he is all powerful and all knowing, it becomes much easier to simply accept that he will do what is right in all situations. If you don't have that level of faith, then you may struggle with an issue such as a missionary partially exposing some backwoods native to the news that Jesus Christ died for them. If God knows what is in your heart (I believe he does) can a person really think that whether or not they are able to get last rites really matters? I would sure want them and take them if possible but, if a traffic jam for instance causes the Priest to be too late, I personally don't feel that would be a deal breaker. I have no concerns whatsoever but please feel free to try to shoot holes in my beliefs and I will continue to explain them as best as I can. The thing I might struggle with is why anyone, especially someone who has expressed a disbelief in God, would care what I think or believe. It just comes down to faith. There are only 3 options; You have it, you want it but are struggling, or you don't have it. If you don't have it and don't want it, no amount of explanation from little old me is ever going to matter or make sense.

 

[Roark]

...However, it does take extraordinary faith in a higher power to be able to understand them without getting hung up on issues such as your missionary example. It also allows me to not get hung up on things such as last rites, confession, infant death before baptism, etc.

I used to be in your exact position: arguing with my athiest friends about Christianity and the existance of God. When presented with the evidence, the only thing I could fall back on was this idea of "faith." Unfortunately, as I later realized, that idea only results in ignoring logic, reasoning and modern knowledge. Why would a god create humans, who's superiority to animals relies on their ability to use intellect and power of deduction to survive and thrive on this planet, only to expect his creations to submit to ignorance when it comes to mythological beliefs?

The thing I might struggle with is why anyone, especially someone who has expressed a disbelief in God, would care what I think or believe. It just comes down to faith. There are only 3 options; You have it, you want it but are struggling, or you don't have it. If you don't have it and don't want it, no amount of explanation from little old me is ever going to matter or make sense.

As stated above, I've gone beyond struggling with it. Choose to believe what you want. However, by now you should be able to see why people, such as myself, see such perspectives archaic and downright silly at times. Personally, I find it refreshing to look at the world from an honest and objective viewpoint.

 

[JJ Husker]

I used to be in your exact position: arguing with my athiest friends about Christianity and the existance of God. When presented with the evidence, the only thing I could fall back on was this idea of "faith." Unfortunately, as I later realized, that idea only results in ignoring logic, reasoning and modern knowledge. Why would a god create humans, who's superiority to animals relies on their ability to use intellect and power of deduction to survive and thrive on this planet, only to expect his creations to submit to ignorance when it comes to mythological beliefs?

As stated above, I've gone beyond struggling with it. Choose to believe what you want. However, by now you should be able to see why people, such as myself, see such perspectives archaic and downright silly at times. Personally, I find it refreshing to look at the world from an honest and objective viewpoint.

I will, thanks. Have a good day.