BigRedBuster
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AAAhhhhhhh.......
:cowbell:
:cowbell:
'Mansplaining'
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Mierin
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B.B. Hemingway
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I'll assume that this is at least partially directed towards me.
I have not once in this thread (or any other) denied the inequality that faces women.
I just don't think that:
1) Fighting harmless (in my opinion) cliches that have developed in our lexicon over decades is productive.
2) These cliches/stereotypes aren't standing in the way of women's ability to be successful, or equal individuals in our society. Literally every sex, religion, ethnicity, etc has stereotypical thoughts/cliches based on them.
Also, I've always made an effort to engage in conversation in this forum. The more I know, and the more my thoughts/values are questioned, the better I'll be.
B.B. Hemingway
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BigRedBuster
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If That picture is you.....and I was you....I'd have a problem ever being able to leave the shower.
Kiyoat Husker
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Yeah, mostly towards you, but this thread is so darn long, that I thought i would generalize a little. Besides, My gripe isn't just with you, its with the "arguement" that bias/racism/inequity either does not exist, or is not a big deal (as it relates to certain issues like language). I was thinking also about the discussions we have had on the flag kneeling, for example.
I'll give you a personal example. Growing up in suburban SD in the 70's and 80's I frequently called people "f**s" and "retards". I usually used those terms jokingly with friends, but sometimes as a serious insult. I also heard and told racist jokes quite a bit. Especially about Indians.
I only learned that these words were degrading, hurtful and marginalizing gradually over time, and as I was exposed to new experiences, people, places and education. I now feel like I'm much more sensitive to how my words can intimidate and hurt people, but I occasionally still can revert back when I'm around certain people.
Words matter, and can have long - lasting, corrosive effects on equality IMO
B.B. Hemingway
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@Kiyoat Husker, I appreciate your post! Let me try my take at the same idea, but take it in a slightly different direction in hopes that @B.B. Hemingway can get this.
I grew up, even in late high school/early college, not having any reservation with the following:
• calling people ****, retard, gay, slut, thug, etc.
• using terms like African-American and jew in jokes or jokingly referring to friends as such, or to players in the NBA, whatever
• making jokes about trivial things like, 'woman, go make me a sandwich'
• i could keep going with this, but you get the idea
As I moved to bigger and bigger places, with more people with different like experiences, I started to notice some things.
The first thing I noticed was that, even though all those bullet points might seem harmless in their individual contexts (I would never call a black person a African-American, or call a gay person a f****t, or actively seek to oppress minorities! They were just jokes with friends), there was a reason that I was fine with those jokes and terms and that language.
The second thing I noticed, or I guess an extension of the first thing, was that I was comfortable with all of that because I'd been taught, very, very, very subtly, that I was more normal and "better" than others who didn't share my normal, default, typical life experience. I felt superior to women without even realizing that that was in my brain.
I felt more reasonable and even-tempered and less dramatic than black people without a clue as to why the black people I knew seemed more volatile or dramatic or loud. I knew better than Muslims because I was a Christian and I was right about God while they were simple-minded and misguided. So on and so forth.
B.B. and others say these little things don't matter, like grains of sand on the beach. The reason they matter isn't because it actually matters in that moment - it's because they represent something deeper when they happen.
It doesn't actually matter that my best friend and I would call each other f****t as a joking insult growing up. Neither of us are gay, neither of us are offended, no harm no foul. What actually matters is that I had a problematic view of gay people that led to me being comfortable saying something like that in the first place.
I grew up, even in late high school/early college, not having any reservation with the following:
• calling people ****, retard, gay, slut, thug, etc.
• using terms like African-American and jew in jokes or jokingly referring to friends as such, or to players in the NBA, whatever
• making jokes about trivial things like, 'woman, go make me a sandwich'
• i could keep going with this, but you get the idea
As I moved to bigger and bigger places, with more people with different like experiences, I started to notice some things.
The first thing I noticed was that, even though all those bullet points might seem harmless in their individual contexts (I would never call a black person a African-American, or call a gay person a f****t, or actively seek to oppress minorities! They were just jokes with friends), there was a reason that I was fine with those jokes and terms and that language.
The second thing I noticed, or I guess an extension of the first thing, was that I was comfortable with all of that because I'd been taught, very, very, very subtly, that I was more normal and "better" than others who didn't share my normal, default, typical life experience. I felt superior to women without even realizing that that was in my brain.
I felt more reasonable and even-tempered and less dramatic than black people without a clue as to why the black people I knew seemed more volatile or dramatic or loud. I knew better than Muslims because I was a Christian and I was right about God while they were simple-minded and misguided. So on and so forth.
B.B. and others say these little things don't matter, like grains of sand on the beach. The reason they matter isn't because it actually matters in that moment - it's because they represent something deeper when they happen.
It doesn't actually matter that my best friend and I would call each other f****t as a joking insult growing up. Neither of us are gay, neither of us are offended, no harm no foul. What actually matters is that I had a problematic view of gay people that led to me being comfortable saying something like that in the first place.
Kiyoat Husker
New member
Sounds like you've had similar experiences to mine in this area. One thing I find interesting is that the things that have woken me up from ignorant and bigoted language have been:
1. Living in different places
2. Befriending diverse people with different backgrounds and experiences.
3. Studying a variety of social subjects in college (a traditional liberal arts type degree)
4. 40 years of life experiences and a questioning mind.
The idea that colleges create liberal elites and liberalizes the population is, to me, just fear of knowledge, and questions and what follows.
1. Living in different places
2. Befriending diverse people with different backgrounds and experiences.
3. Studying a variety of social subjects in college (a traditional liberal arts type degree)
4. 40 years of life experiences and a questioning mind.
The idea that colleges create liberal elites and liberalizes the population is, to me, just fear of knowledge, and questions and what follows.
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zoogs
New member
Really well said, guys 
About five or so years ago, I would have been on exactly BB's side. I had people around me too who would sometimes talk about these issues and I'd just say, reflexively, "hey, men face stuff too." It's a process and a detox and hopefully something everyone eventually can internalize. It's none of our faults that it's a different point in life where we start being receptive, etc; that's the world we were born into. One that requires a lot of rewiring.
I can't say what it was really that finally made me start to not automatically dismiss, tune out, or file away these points when they were brought up. Perhaps it's a generational or social circles thing, some combination of that. It's awfully hard to avoid repeated exposure and consequently, near impossible to hold onto old views in the face of this.
Like for me, I feel that spending my most formative years in this wonderful environment populated by immigrants but also quit marginalizing or not inclusive of women shapes how I process things. STEM can be a world and culture that's both exciting and which I'm a part of, but also have all these serious shortcomings within, which many of us will also refuse to see or even actively deny (hello, James Darmore). Likewise with America in general. Hopefully these kinds of things can translate and propagate.
About five or so years ago, I would have been on exactly BB's side. I had people around me too who would sometimes talk about these issues and I'd just say, reflexively, "hey, men face stuff too." It's a process and a detox and hopefully something everyone eventually can internalize. It's none of our faults that it's a different point in life where we start being receptive, etc; that's the world we were born into. One that requires a lot of rewiring.
I can't say what it was really that finally made me start to not automatically dismiss, tune out, or file away these points when they were brought up. Perhaps it's a generational or social circles thing, some combination of that. It's awfully hard to avoid repeated exposure and consequently, near impossible to hold onto old views in the face of this.
Like for me, I feel that spending my most formative years in this wonderful environment populated by immigrants but also quit marginalizing or not inclusive of women shapes how I process things. STEM can be a world and culture that's both exciting and which I'm a part of, but also have all these serious shortcomings within, which many of us will also refuse to see or even actively deny (hello, James Darmore). Likewise with America in general. Hopefully these kinds of things can translate and propagate.
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zoogs
New member
--
Not to pick on BRB in particular here, but as an example: I always wonder what possesses men to make a crude sex joke every time we see a picture of a (worthy-looking) woman. We do it all the time, I've done it, and so on; it just happened to come up unprompted in this thread as well, but it's everywhere. We even have a forum dedicated to this. We're mostly at least uncomfortable a little bit when it's done in reverse (but, none of us live in a world where that is absolutely pervasive). And just the need to vocalize this; why? Isn't there quite enough of "hotness is the defining characteristic of a woman" put on blast from every corner? You wouldn't say this at a table with all of your close female friends, right? Or if so, what would you be trying to communicate to them?
Not to pick on BRB in particular here, but as an example: I always wonder what possesses men to make a crude sex joke every time we see a picture of a (worthy-looking) woman. We do it all the time, I've done it, and so on; it just happened to come up unprompted in this thread as well, but it's everywhere. We even have a forum dedicated to this. We're mostly at least uncomfortable a little bit when it's done in reverse (but, none of us live in a world where that is absolutely pervasive). And just the need to vocalize this; why? Isn't there quite enough of "hotness is the defining characteristic of a woman" put on blast from every corner? You wouldn't say this at a table with all of your close female friends, right? Or if so, what would you be trying to communicate to them?
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BigRedBuster
Active member
This is going to sound like another one of "those" discussions. But, this is an area that I am very very cognizant of.
I work in a professional situation and I never ever discuss a woman's looks. I am involved in several professional organizations and nonprofit boards....I never talk about a woman's looks. I won't even comment on a woman's new shoes or new color of hair.
Meanwhile, a hot guy walks into our office and it goes throughout the office their's a hot guy at the front desk. I've been out at a social gathering with the office women and they joke about who is hot and who isn't hot in the office. It's a funny joke in our office that one of the women that used to work here had such a huge crush on another guy in management.
I worked in healthcare during college with over 50 women and 2-3 men. I was exposed to what would be called sexual harassment many times over those 4 years.
I fully understand why men should not do anything that makes a woman uncomfortable in the work place or other professional situations. I work very hard to keep that out of our work place.
But....it's a pretty sad day when outside all of those situations when a guy can't comment on a woman's looks.
If something happened to my wife, I honestly would have no clue how to try to pickup a woman without overstepping some new social boundary.
I work in a professional situation and I never ever discuss a woman's looks. I am involved in several professional organizations and nonprofit boards....I never talk about a woman's looks. I won't even comment on a woman's new shoes or new color of hair.
Meanwhile, a hot guy walks into our office and it goes throughout the office their's a hot guy at the front desk. I've been out at a social gathering with the office women and they joke about who is hot and who isn't hot in the office. It's a funny joke in our office that one of the women that used to work here had such a huge crush on another guy in management.
I worked in healthcare during college with over 50 women and 2-3 men. I was exposed to what would be called sexual harassment many times over those 4 years.
I fully understand why men should not do anything that makes a woman uncomfortable in the work place or other professional situations. I work very hard to keep that out of our work place.
But....it's a pretty sad day when outside all of those situations when a guy can't comment on a woman's looks.
If something happened to my wife, I honestly would have no clue how to try to pickup a woman without overstepping some new social boundary.
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zoogs
New member
I think maybe "If I looked like you, I'd have trouble leaving the shower [...]" is not a necessary part of a pickup repertoire.
You can comment all you like and however you like. It's like anything else -- but then, what you choose to do defines who you are, and how people choose to react defines them, etc. It doesn't seem like a sad day to me if every publicly vocalized, creepily sexualizing comment about some random woman who flashes across a man's gaze earns him some criticism and quizzical looks rather than high fives from the people around him. Even a superficial analysis of the comment shows, I think, that it merits it. I get why we prefer getting plaudits instead, and I truly hope it's not devastating for you to not have that. And I really hope the argument "I was sexually harassed before, so a little turnabout is only fair" is not even close to being suggested here.
You can comment all you like and however you like. It's like anything else -- but then, what you choose to do defines who you are, and how people choose to react defines them, etc. It doesn't seem like a sad day to me if every publicly vocalized, creepily sexualizing comment about some random woman who flashes across a man's gaze earns him some criticism and quizzical looks rather than high fives from the people around him. Even a superficial analysis of the comment shows, I think, that it merits it. I get why we prefer getting plaudits instead, and I truly hope it's not devastating for you to not have that. And I really hope the argument "I was sexually harassed before, so a little turnabout is only fair" is not even close to being suggested here.
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BigRedBuster
Active member
Good friggen Lord Zoogs.......
In no way shape or form am I implying anything such as my joke above is a pick up line....or that because I experienced something when I was younger, then it's OK for me to act a certain way.
It's like you didn't read my post and only cherry picked what you want to out of it trying your hardest to use it to act like you're somehow more worldly aware than I am.
In no way shape or form am I implying anything such as my joke above is a pick up line....or that because I experienced something when I was younger, then it's OK for me to act a certain way.
It's like you didn't read my post and only cherry picked what you want to out of it trying your hardest to use it to act like you're somehow more worldly aware than I am.
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teachercd
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