Poll: Abortion legality belief spectrum

[NM11046]

I don’t necessarily disagree - the challenge in the semantic then is asking if a pro life advocates view replicating cells as “alive”. Your example would be an interesting one re: cells in space. 

I find it super interesting that  “science” has actually been the root cause of the confusion. Back in the good old days you weren't sure you were pregnant until “the quickening” was felt.  Thats usually is 19-20 weeks.  The idea of conception = life or implantation = life or heartbeat = life is only talked about because we have tools to explore those items now.  

(Side note - did you guys know that implantation doesn't happen for 12-24 hours after sex?  So the view of the morning after pill being an “abortion pill” is whacked.)

 

[RedDenver]

1) Science (mainly biology, taught in classrooms, accepted and declared as fact by national governing bodies) teaches that life begins when a sperm fertilizes an oocyte and together they form a zygote. Why are there arguments in this recent thread that that isn't the case? Is that not a widely held belief in the scientific community? Ignoring humans, that is accepted definition for all other living organisms as far as I've ever heard taught.

We need to stop arguing over when life starts because it's silly. Science doesn't teach that life begins at conception because both the sperm and the egg were living cells before conception. There's no "life begins" in the process.

As @Landlord pointed the real discussion should be about when "personhood begins".

And even after the point that the fetus is a person, there's still the argument of the rights of the woman vs the rights of the fetus.

 

[Mierin]

No idea if this guy is actually a minister but I like the words.

 

[Atbone95]

Nobody is arguing that that is when life begins. The conversation is when personhood begins. Life isn't a good litmus test because we destroy life all the time in ways that are not destructive or bad or worth concern. Any time you scrub your skin you've technically destroyed a little bit of living tissue. Any time you eat....pretty much anything, some amount of life has been destroyed. 

Not sure exactly what type of consistency you're looking for. Bald Eagles are endangered, thus they need special protection. If you murder a pregnant woman you've ended the potential for life from the pregnancy without her consent; if she gets an abortion, that's a consensual decision. I do see it as a bit tricky and a hairy conversation and I don't necessarily have any answers, but consistency isn't the same thing as equity and I'm not sure how consistency plays out.

Has science declared it's ruling on the "eaglehood" of bald eagle eggs? 

 

[RedDenver]

Has science declared it's ruling on the "eaglehood" of bald eagle eggs? 

The debate isn't the "humanhood" of the fetus - it's clearly human DNA. It's the "personhood" of the fetus. A bald eagle egg clearly isn't a "person". But as Landlord already pointed out, bald eagles aren't protected under the rights given people under the Constitution, but rather under laws protecting endangered species.

 

[Landlord]

Has science declared it's ruling on the "eaglehood" of bald eagle eggs? 

Sort of. Science invented eagles. Or rather, science gave name to them. Science created birds too. Or at least science came up with the category. Science also made them an endangered species. Or rather science came up with a label to give to things we perceive as being in danger.

Point is, none of these things are real. Things like life, personhood, death, animals, humans, species, personality, etc. -- none of those are "real" things. They're just ideas that we all share.

 

[funhusker]

A few questions for everyone:

Do you think exceptions should be made in cases of rape or incest of a minor?

Do you think it is okay for a woman to terminate a non viable pregnancy to begin the greaving process?

Do you think it is okay to terminate the pregnancy if a woman’s health is at risk?

Do you think it is okay to abort one fetus if it means saving siblings sharing the same womb?

Do you think it is important for a woman to talk to her doctor about options without the fear of persecution?

If you answer “yes” to just one of these, congratulations! You are “pro-choice”.  Welcome to the very complicated and overly villafied spectrum of “baby killers!”

 

[whateveritis1224]

A few questions for everyone:

Do you think exceptions should be made in cases of rape or incest of a minor?

Do you think it is okay for a woman to terminate a non viable pregnancy to begin the greaving process?

Do you think it is okay to terminate the pregnancy if a woman’s health is at risk?

Do you think it is okay to abort one fetus if it means saving siblings sharing the same womb?

Do you think it is important for a woman to talk to her doctor about options without the fear of persecution?

If you answer “yes” to just one of these, congratulations! You are “pro-choice”.  Welcome to the very complicated and overly villafied spectrum of “baby killers!”

If I said yes to all, am I going to hell?

 

[BigRedBuster]

I don’t believe that stat. 

 

[funhusker]

I don’t believe that stat. 

I'm wondering if it wasn't supposed to be 1 in 40.  The following paragraph is from the study that Vox got its numbers from.

"When examined by age group, women aged 20 to 24 years accounted for the largest share of abortions and also had the highest abortion rate: 28.0 per 1000. The second highest abortion rate was among those aged 25 to 29 years: 22.8 per 1000. "

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/10.2105/AJPH.2017.304042

@Moiraine might be able to clarify.  She's a stats person.

 

[Landlord]

I don't know how to make sense of those numbers either. 

 

[funhusker]

Even if it is 1 in 40, that's nothing to sneeze at. 

 

[Danny Bateman]

Leaked GOP talking points: Forced birth better than abortion for rape, incest victims

National Republican talking points leaked to Vice News show that lawmakers are preparing to defend Alabama’s draconian abortion ban by arguing that it is better “physically” and “psychologically” to deny abortions to victims of rape and incest.
 

The document was distributed by the Republican Study Committee, a conservative caucus that includes about 70 percent of House Republicans. The memo offers “messaging guidance” on “our pro-life platform” and instructs members on how to defend Alabama’s abortion ban, which bars abortion during all stages of pregnancy unless the mother’s life is in danger. The bill makes no exemptions for victims of rape and incest. Under the law, doctors could be sentenced up to 99 years in prison for performing an abortion.

This is the kind of crap that gives the pro-life crowd a bad name. Honestly disgusting:

In cases of rape and incest:

• These are horrific incidents that are incredibly traumatic for the victims, and we should do absolutely everything in our power not only to punish these abuses but also to prevent these atrocities from ever occurring. We should not, however, give a death sentence to the innocent child.
  
• Committing a second violent act with abortion to a woman who has already been victimized by an act of rape or incest could physically or psychologically wound her further.
  
• We should provide these women with the resources and care they need to heal, not encourage more pain and suffering.
  
• Every single child should be afforded the opportunity to live, regardless of how they were conceived.
  

No doubt these chuckleheads have no idea how incredibly tone deaf this stuff will come off to the women they are addressing.

 

[Danny Bateman]

This is a good back and forth on the Missouri healthcare law that was recently passed that further restricted abortion access. It does a good job by having an actual doctor weigh in on the multiple anti-abortion bills passing around the nation but specifically in Missouri.

 

[schriznoeder]

Wow, Paul Gosar is trying really hard to keep up with Jim Jordan, Steve King, Mark Meadows, Matt Gaetz, etc. in terms of grifting...

POLL: PRO-LIFE OR PRO-CHOICE?

And I love that he makes sure everyone knows he's a dentist. WTF?!