Poll: Abortion legality belief spectrum

[NM11046]

This will be decided by the SC - 5-4 conservative majority - depending if John Roberts feels conservative or not that day. 

However, I think a person's first amendment rights of religion (one could also argue free speech) would come before the right of an abortion when access isn't being banned by this policy.   This reminds me some of the Cake Decorator SC case - SC ruled in favor of the cake decorator - his religious 1st amend rights were being violated by the Colo Civil Rights commission which was forcing him to make cakes for gay marriages or he would otherwise face huge fines. 

It’s the ability, right and obligation of a medical professional to provide medical care.  Would you go to a mechanic who said that they dont replace windshield wipers?  Small part of their job, doesn’t come up often but sometimes for safety reasons they have to do it because they can’t allow a car that wouldn’t pass inspection out on the road.  (Maybe not the best ex but I’m tired).
 

I believe a medical professional is very different from a baker who provides an optional service..  

 

[BigRedBuster]

It’s the ability, right and obligation of a medical professional to provide medical care.  Would you go to a mechanic who said that they dont replace windshield wipers?  Small part of their job, doesn’t come up often but sometimes for safety reasons they have to do it because they can’t allow a car that wouldn’t pass inspection out on the road.  (Maybe not the best ex but I’m tired).
 

I believe a medical professional is very different from a baker who provides an optional service..  

I would find a different mechanic if I need wipers replaced.   :dunno

But, maybe that one is a specialist in transmissions and that's what I need done.

A doctor or medical professional has the right to choose what type of practice they work in and type of medicine they choose to practice. If I want to be a nurse taking care of heart patients, why should I be forced to help with an abortion if it goes against my beliefs?

Let's use a different example.  Let's say the same nurse taking care of heart patients is working at a hospital that decides they are going to do heart transplants.  Now, this nurse has a moral problem with heart transplants because the heart is harvested before a person, in her belief, is still alive...this killing the donor.  

Should that nurse be forced to help with heart transplants?  She the be forced to help harvest a heart even though their moral belief is that it's wrong?

This isn't a far fetched example.  I was around this exact situation long ago.

 

[NM11046]

I would find a different mechanic if I need wipers replaced.   :dunno

But, maybe that one is a specialist in transmissions and that's what I need done.

A doctor or medical professional has the right to choose what type of practice they work in and type of medicine they choose to practice. If I want to be a nurse taking care of heart patients, why should I be forced to help with an abortion if it goes against my beliefs?

Let's use a different example.  Let's say the same nurse taking care of heart patients is working at a hospital that decides they are going to do heart transplants.  Now, this nurse has a moral problem with heart transplants because the heart is harvested before a person, in her belief, is still alive...this killing the donor.  

Should that nurse be forced to help with heart transplants?  She the be forced to help harvest a heart even though their moral belief is that it's wrong?

This isn't a far fetched example.  I was around this exact situation long ago.

That nurse has the option to find work at another institution, but if that is a procedure that the hospital she is employed by does, she will need to be able to support that in her role.   If during the interview The nurse’ was asked if she has a problem with it and she says yes  then they would not hire her, if it was in the job posting then she need not apply.

I can not choose to work M-Th because I have a moral issue with working Friday’s.  If I decide that outweighs my need for employment I’d have to quit and find a job that aligns to my morals or work Friday’s.   With that said, healthcare is a very different beast.  The oath these folks take is a real one.  
 

I can appreciate that perhaps a private hospital that is tied to the Catholic Church will outline in their bylaws that a termination of pregnancy won’t happen there.  But there are situations (I’ll go see if I can find the podcast I heard a year or two ago that focused on this as it s super interesting) where if the catholic hospital is the nearest one to a patient, that puts the public at risk.  They would have to lifeflight or transport a patient to another hospital for the procedure.  Time is critical, and insurance comes into play about where a patient can go (a WHOLE different topic).  Imagine what would happen to our healthcare system and our mortality rates if hospitals could choose what operations they do?  You have to go to Omaha for an appendicitis, stent placement can only be done in Fairbury and if you need amputation you need to go to Grand Island.  Hospitals would maybe only choose to do procedures where they make money - or would only do surgery on males or whatever.

 

[teachercd]

It’s the ability, right and obligation of a medical professional to provide medical care.  Would you go to a mechanic who said that they dont replace windshield wipers?  Small part of their job, doesn’t come up often but sometimes for safety reasons they have to do it because they can’t allow a car that wouldn’t pass inspection out on the road.  (Maybe not the best ex but I’m tired).
 

I believe a medical professional is very different from a baker who provides an optional service..  

Funny you say that...I saw a mechanic the other day that would not give the keys back to the customer because his car was basically going to start on fire...I didn't get to catch all the issue/argument...but the customer called the cops to get his car back.  The mechanic was like "Look, I have to fix this or you have to sign this waiver because your car is not safe"

 

[NM11046]

Some interesting reading below.  

• 1 in 6 hospitals in the US has ethics limitations for things like terminating a pregnancy as well as other procedures and offerings (examples might be Educating and/or providing birth control like condoms Tubal ligation, vasectomy) 
  
• Most of the time you would not know going in whether the hospital you go to or even worse, get taken to by ambulance has any in place that might effect you.  
  
• These ethics rules are determined by church officials and not medical professionals.  
  
• Depending on where you live, the ambulance that picks you up (often a contract service not affiliated with a town or county) radios in and they are told to go to a hospital based on the level of activity going on in the area hospitals - determined purely by patient census, not proximity, or illness or patient needs.
  

https://rewire.news/article/2019/09/25/miscarriage-catholic-hospital/

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/nekpw7/i-went-to-a-catholic-hospital-during-my-miscarriageand-it-nearly-killed-me

https://www.propublica.org/article/at-a-catholic-hospital-a-dispute-over-what-a-doctor-can-do-and-say

 

[Landlord]

But there are situations where if the catholic hospital is the nearest one to a patient, that puts the public at risk.  They would have to lifeflight or transport a patient to another hospital for the procedure.  Time is critical, and insurance comes into play about where a patient can go (a WHOLE different topic). 

How often and feasible is a scenario where a woman needs an abortion right this very second as a medical emergency that something like lifelighting her somewhere would come into play? 

Genuinely asking because I must be ignorant of that being a real possibility as I've never heard of or thought about it. 

 

[NM11046]

How often and feasible is a scenario where a woman needs an abortion right this very second as a medical emergency that something like lifelighting her somewhere would come into play? 

Genuinely asking because I must be ignorant of that being a real possibility as I've never heard of or thought about it. 

Its typically due to miscarriage so its really more appropriately called a D&C.  Id have to look up stats, but miscarriages are pretty common As are D&Cs - Sense of urgency is related to how long they have been in flux with infection etc.  The links above are women who turned septic while they were turned away from ERs in catholic hospitals and told to go home and wait out the miscarriage etc. Hours are critical for septicemIa.  

 

[TGHusker]

It’s the ability, right and obligation of a medical professional to provide medical care.  Would you go to a mechanic who said that they dont replace windshield wipers?  Small part of their job, doesn’t come up often but sometimes for safety reasons they have to do it because they can’t allow a car that wouldn’t pass inspection out on the road.  (Maybe not the best ex but I’m tired).
 

I believe a medical professional is very different from a baker who provides an optional service..  

If we are talking about lifesaving medicine, then I agree.  If we are talking about elective abortion - than not.

 

[NM11046]

One more thing - lots of mergers and acquisitions now days.  Your local hospital may be bought out by a catholic hospital and that changes their policy and ability to perform some procedures. 

The other wrinkle that many med students rotate through various institutions and departments.  4 weeks in the ER, 4 weeks in OB/Gyn, 4 weeks in Cardiology etc.  If their rotation for any of those is at a hospital that is dictated by these Ethics arrangements, they are missing the opportunity to train and identify and treat.  They may then work at a hospital and have to perform a procedure that they have had no exposure to because they rotated through a monitored institution.  Do you pay a doctor more who has had extensive training?  Do you want your wife or daughter to potentially be in a situation where she needs help and find out that the doctor has never done the procedure before and the institution hasn't done one for a year?  Medical mistakes happen more when a doctor is less experienced or has less repetition. 

I have yet to see anyone here say that they'd want to use surgical termination of pregnancy as birth control or as a routine, but I don't think there's a benefit from a healthcare standpoint to limit its availability and the training that professionals need to have in order to be prepared to care for their population.

 

[BigRedBuster]

Well....luckily the two nurses I knew about were allowed to opt  out of helping with transplants due to their beliefs. The hospital had enough nurses to cover it. 
 

I do not agree with forcing someone to participate in something they believe is wrong morally or religiously. 

 

[RedDenver]

Well....luckily the two nurses I knew about were allowed to opt  out of helping with transplants due to their beliefs. The hospital had enough nurses to cover it. 
 

I do not agree with forcing someone to participate in something they believe is wrong morally or religiously. 

By that same reasoning, shouldn't the churches then choose not to own/operate hospitals if they can't morally perform all the procedures deemed necessary by the community? Same for being a nurse or doctor?

 

[Ratt Mhule]

I would find a different mechanic if I need wipers replaced.   :dunno

But, maybe that one is a specialist in transmissions and that's what I need done.

A doctor or medical professional has the right to choose what type of practice they work in and type of medicine they choose to practice. If I want to be a nurse taking care of heart patients, why should I be forced to help with an abortion if it goes against my beliefs?

Let's use a different example.  Let's say the same nurse taking care of heart patients is working at a hospital that decides they are going to do heart transplants.  Now, this nurse has a moral problem with heart transplants because the heart is harvested before a person, in her belief, is still alive...this killing the donor.  

Should that nurse be forced to help with heart transplants?  She the be forced to help harvest a heart even though their moral belief is that it's wrong?

This isn't a far fetched example.  I was around this exact situation long ago.

She shouldnt be forced to do anything. But she should be fired for not doing her job. 

 

[BigRedBuster]

By that same reasoning, shouldn't the churches then choose not to own/operate hospitals if they can't morally perform all the procedures deemed necessary by the community? Same for being a nurse or doctor?

That's a strange analogy.  

So, a medical clinic that wants to specialize in urology should be forced to perform C sections because the community desires to have that service too?

 

[BigRedBuster]

She shouldnt be forced to do anything. But she should be fired for not doing her job. 

I didn't say she refused to do it.  I said she had a moral problem with it.  She expressed the moral problem and the hospital worked around it.  

Thinking back, if the hospital would have forced the issue, I think she would have quit.

So...should she be fired simply because she expressed a moral problem with what the hospital was doing?  Do you really want to get into a situation where people are fired because the express moral issues with what an employer is doing?

 

[NM11046]

That's a strange analogy.  

So, a medical clinic that wants to specialize in urology should be forced to perform C sections because the community desires to have that service too?

There are many clinics that are specialized - you go there knowing that.  
 

You go to a hospital for care and (an ER for instance) shouldnt have a special focus or limitations.