Racism - It's a real thing.

[Enhance]

Please tell me where I said that this video proves anything implicitly. I said it was interesting. 

I believe it is interesting because it shows a white male physically assaulting an officer in an extremely violent manner. That white male is not shot. If it proves anything, it proves you can physically attack an officer and not be killed. It proves that you can disobey police orders and not be killed. It proves that you can be behaving belligerently and not be killed. It proves that police can handle a situation without killing someone, even if they're being physically threatened in a violent manner. I wish that kind of courtesy had been shown to Walter Scott, Eric Garner, Stephon Clark and plenty of others. 

I specifically compared the video to Betty Shelby, who shot and killed Terence Crutcher, an unarmed black man who had his hands in the air. Charles Kinsey pictured below was laying on his back with his hands in the air, and he still gets perceived as a big enough threat to be shot.

But when a white guy tackles a cop to the ground, he's not perceived as enough of a threat to be shot. I find that challenging to understand and accept. 

But it's clear the video isn't just 'interesting' to you, Fru. You're using it as evidence to drive a narrative. I mean, you literally posted three paragraphs to defend yourself and ended it by saying what we know your honest intent is here (in bold). You've also been more explicit in posts since this one. Why beat around the bush?

I'm not saying your discussion is wrong to have. What's wrong is the artful misrepresentation.

Second of all, the specific tweet you shared here came from a man who's saying 'if that had been me who attacked the cop (aka a black man), I would've been shot and become another martyr for cop vs. black violence.' I know you know this.

Which leads me back to the points I again raise - why is this video sufficient enough evidence to buoy that conversation? What is it proving? What are the details of that arrest? What do we know about those police officers - are they racist, are they not? Have they been accused of racial profiling in previous arrests? Without knowledge of the answers, the 'interest' in that video smells like a lot of misleading garbage just to stir the pot.

 

[Fru]

But it's clear the video isn't just 'interesting' to you, Fru. You're using it as evidence to drive a narrative. I mean, you literally posted three paragraphs to defend yourself and ended it by saying what we know your honest intent is here (in bold). You've also been more explicit in posts since this one. Why beat around the bush?

I'm not saying your discussion is wrong to have. What's wrong is the artful misrepresentation.

Second of all, the specific tweet you shared here came from a man who's saying 'if that had been me who attacked the cop (aka a black man), I would've been shot and become another martyr for cop vs. black violence.' I know you know this.

Which leads me back to the points I again raise - why is this video sufficient enough evidence to buoy that conversation? What is it proving? What are the details of that arrest? What do we know about those police officers - are they racist, are they not? Have they been accused of racial profiling in previous arrests? Without knowledge of the answers, the 'interest' in that video smells like a lot of misleading garbage just to stir the pot.

I'm using it as evidence that people can assault an officer, threaten someone's life, disobey commands etc and not be killed for it the way so many people of color are. I see it as evidence that police can handle violent situations without resorting to killing people. I don't see how that's artful misrepresentation.

Yes, that's the impression given by the author of the tweet. If that's how he feels, that's how he feels. I didn't write it. My focus has been on the content of the video.

You're asking me specifics about the video to which I obviously cannot answer.  However, just because I don't know every detail about it doesn't mean it's invaluable. Like I've said multiple times already, this video is evidence that people don't have to be killed, there's value in that. 

I don't see it as pot stirring garbage because I think it's facilitated a decent, constructive, civil discussion. 

 

[Enhance]

I'm using it as evidence that people can assault an officer, threaten someone's life, disobey commands etc and not be killed for it the way so many people of color are.

I know, by enabling an unfair narrative about people you don't know and a situation you know nothing about. That's a disingenuous and disappointing tactic, regardless of the discussion you're trying to have. Of course people don't have to be killed by cops, especially based on the color of their skin and the actions. People of all races and backgrounds assault cops every single day and most of them don't die.

A discussion about whether law enforcement kills people of color at a disproportionately higher rate or racial biases in law enforcement are incredibly valuable topics. Having this general discussion is valuable. But presenting that tweet in that fashion is unjust and can be easily interpreted as trying to draw a negative response from others.

 

[Fru]

I know, by enabling an unfair narrative about people you don't know and a situation you know nothing about. That's a disingenuous and disappointing tactic, regardless of the discussion you're trying to have. Of course people don't have to be killed by cops, especially based on the color of their skin and the actions. People of all races and backgrounds assault cops every single day and most of them don't die.

A discussion about whether law enforcement kills people of color at a disproportionately higher rate or racial biases in law enforcement are incredibly valuable topics. Having this general discussion is valuable. But presenting that tweet in that fashion is unjust and can be easily interpreted as trying to draw a negative response from others.

It seems that you're hung up on the content of the tweet. That was never my argument. I was arguing the merit of the video, which seemed to nullify the "I feared for my life" excuse that's often given when people of color are killed.  

Would you rather I post something like this article for the merit of racism in the police force? Is this more to your liking? 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-francisco-police-officer-racism-20180410-story.html

"San Francisco officer alleges 'blatant racism' in Police Department"

"A San Francisco police officer who emigrated from Afghanistan and is Muslim has alleged that he was harassed on the job and retaliated against after reporting racist and homophobic comments by his colleagues. During a news conference organized by San Francisco Public Defender Jeff Adachi, the officer said he experienced "blatant racism" by other officers and sergeants, who suggested he was a terrorist and called him derogatory slurs.

He was told to leave his grenades at home, and to inform an officer if his family members were planning an attack so the officer could "put them down gently."  In November 2017, the complaint said, the officer was on patrol when a colleague told him: "I want to get guns, and the only people who have guns are blacks and Hispanics. The department doesn't like us to make judgments like that, but if I see a black person behind the wheel of the vehicle, I'll pull the car over and figure out my probable cause later."

 

[Landlord]

Now you're trying to say that white folks have a better experience with the police than minorities which just simply isn't necessarily true in that broad of a sense.

Well, according to the majority of black and other minority people, that is exactly true. I'm more skeptical of the police officer saying that police treat minorities with the same respect/care/etiquette as white folk, than i am of minorities saying that they're treated differently and unequally by police. Why should I take your word over theirs?

Watching that video, what you're saying is your opinion and in no way should be taken as fact. You simply don't have any idea what would happen if a minority would've been the suspect in this case. You are making an assumption and, most likely, and incorrect assumption at that. 

The video doesn't really provide context, so I'm not interested in the video, for the rightful reasons you laid out. What I am interested in, though, is how almost every single police department investigated by the DoJ over the last 4-5 years has been found to have racist practices and real serious problems of racial bias. Let's talk about that! Also, why aren't you talking about that more? That should make you furious, IMO; should make you way more angry and way more vocal because not only does it makes you look bad, and not only is it a much bigger issue (as far as the impact of that behavior) than people on twitter overgeneralizing and painting too broad of a brush towards LEOs, but it's also a trend across multiple police departments, so there's at least a compelling idea of something in common across law enforcement here.

...when you continue to show the same distaste for police over and over again from what I've observed.

The distaste is for bad police. Not for all police. That distaste does not apply to good, honorable, ethical police who treat people equally. It applies to racist cops, to excessive force, to the systemic injustices of the justice system, and so on. It doesn't apply to you.

 

[BIGREDIOWAN]

Well, according to the majority of black and other minority people, that is exactly true. I'm more skeptical of the police officer saying that police treat minorities with the same respect/care/etiquette as white folk, than i am of minorities saying that they're treated differently and unequally by police. Why should I take your word over theirs?

The video doesn't really provide context, so I'm not interested in the video, for the rightful reasons you laid out. What I am interested in, though, is how almost every single police department investigated by the DoJ over the last 4-5 years has been found to have racist practices and real serious problems of racial bias. Let's talk about that! Also, why aren't you talking about that more? That should make you furious, IMO; should make you way more angry and way more vocal because it makes you look bad and is a much bigger issue than people on twitter overgeneralizing and painting too broad of a brush towards LEOs.

The distaste is for bad police. Not for all police. That distaste does not apply to good, honorable, ethical police who treat people equally. It applies to racist cops, to excessive force, to the systemic injustices of the justice system, and so on. It doesn't apply to you.

You and I have talked about this over and over and over again until I'm blue in the face. You have also proven that you aren't willing to see things from my side of the fence so I've simply decided it's not worth the discussion anymore nor the aggravation.  We'll just have to agree to disagree because you've seemed to have forgetten some of the things I've said during our discussions as is obvious based on what you've just said above. 

 

[Making Chimichangas]

I’m not arguing against that. I’m arguing that it’s wrong to use such a broad stroke when calling this a double standard. It’s completely different people wearing the badge. Were it the same cop in the situation the only difference being the race of the suspect, then I’d 100% agree with you.

Oh come on...

There are countless examples where white people physically attack and shoot at cops and yet somehow they are not shot and killed.  There are also countless examples where black people are no threat, have their hands in the air, are complying with police orders, and they STILL get shot and killed.

Are all police racist?  Of course not.  But police DO on average treat whites and blacks differently.  Whites get far more leeway to be rude, talk back, and provoke police--black people...not so much.

If you deny that, despite all evidence, then.... :facepalm:  and  :dunno

 

[DrunkOffPunch]

Oh come on...

There are countless examples where white people physically attack and shoot at cops and yet somehow they are not shot and killed.  There are also countless examples where black people are no threat, have their hands in the air, are complying with police orders, and they STILL get shot and killed.

Are all police racist?  Of course not.  But police DO on average treat whites and blacks differently.  Whites get far more leeway to be rude, talk back, and provoke police--black people...not so much.

If you deny that, despite all evidence, then.... :facepalm:  and  :dunno

Yea and I agree with that which is why I said that when Fru made the same point.

Yea and I agree with that which is why I said that I wasn’t arguing against it when Fru made the same point.

 

[Enhance]

It seems that you're hung up on the content of the tweet. That was never my argument. I was arguing the merit of the video, which seemed to nullify the "I feared for my life" excuse that's often given when people of color are killed.  

Would you rather I post something like this article for the merit of racism in the police force? Is this more to your liking? 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-san-francisco-police-officer-racism-20180410-story.html

"San Francisco officer alleges 'blatant racism' in Police Department"

"A San Francisco police officer who emigrated from Afghanistan and is Muslim has alleged that he was harassed on the job and retaliated against after reporting racist and homophobic comments by his colleagues. During a news conference organized by San Francisco Public Defender Jeff Adachi, the officer said he experienced "blatant racism" by other officers and sergeants, who suggested he was a terrorist and called him derogatory slurs.

He was told to leave his grenades at home, and to inform an officer if his family members were planning an attack so the officer could "put them down gently."  In November 2017, the complaint said, the officer was on patrol when a colleague told him: "I want to get guns, and the only people who have guns are blacks and Hispanics. The department doesn't like us to make judgments like that, but if I see a black person behind the wheel of the vehicle, I'll pull the car over and figure out my probable cause later."

I'm hung up on the lack of context and intent of your shared tweet. I don't intend to be rude, but I feel like I've made that clear multiple times now.

To answer your question, yes - that is a better method of discussing the topic than sharing an obscure video with no context and trying to supplant it as evidence that 'fearing your life' is not always an excuse. As I've said once already, I believe the overall conversation is valuable. I believe the method was questionable and unnecessary. I will leave it at that.

 

[Fru]

I'm hung up on the lack of context and intent of your shared tweet. I don't intend to be rude, but I feel like I've made that clear multiple times now.

To answer your question, yes - that is a better method of discussing the topic than sharing an obscure video with no context and trying to supplant it as evidence that 'fearing your life' is not always an excuse. As I've said once already, I believe the overall conversation is valuable. I believe the method was questionable and unnecessary. I will leave it at that.

My subsequent posts, links, photos, comparisons to other interactions with police, etc gave it more context, which I feel I’ve made clear multiple times as well. 

Good to know. You may very well believe that. I disagree. And I’ll leave it at that. 

 

[NM11046]

Not sure if this belongs in the racism or the misogyny threads but I'll put it here.  


As a side note/women golf example, one of my last times golfing I went looking for my ball after teeing off (it went over a ridge).  I approached a man in the rough area between two holes and he told me he picked it up because he saw there were women teeing off and there was no way one of us could hit that far.  

 

[Whistlebritches]

Not sure if this belongs in the racism or the misogyny threads but I'll put it here.  


As a side note/women golf example, one of my last times golfing I went looking for my ball after teeing off (it went over a ridge).  I approached a man in the rough area between two holes and he told me he picked it up because he saw there were women teeing off and there was no way one of us could hit that far.  

This AP article isn't playing up the racism angle like a lot of other sources are. The story I read earlier this morning about this same incident was trying really hard to make it look like the police were called because the golfers are black women. I can't believe the police actually showed up for this. I guess the dispatcher was told it was a dispute? I'd love to hear a recording of the call.

 

[DevoHusker]

This specific video clip is interesting because it shows a white guy physically assaulting an officer, and he doesn't get shot, yet we hear over and over again that officers "feared for their lives" as a defense for shooting someone, like Betty Shelby for example. She fears for her life when she sees Terence Crutcher with his hands in the air, so she shoots him dead. 

A white dude can tackle a cop to the ground and nothing happens, a black dude has his hands in the air and he ends up dead. Dylann Roof murders nine and the police give him a bullet proof vest. Eric Garner sells untaxed cigarettes and he gets choked to death in teh street. That's the point. It's not a BS narrative and I am not trying to stir the pot. You have a vested interest in this matter which seems like it makes it difficult for you to see anything from a different point of view. 

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the case from Council Bluffs just a year ago. Deputy Mark Burbridge was shot and killed, another deputy was shot and wounded, and two cars were hijacked at gunpoint by the fleeing felon, one after he shot the driver in the neck, the other driver was kidnapped and forced to drive away. The suspect escaped after he was being sentenced for an earlier murder...

The suspect, Wesley Correa-Carmenaty (who is black) was re-captured and arrested, without further incident, by OPD later in the day.

 

[Enhance]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the case from Council Bluffs just a year ago. Deputy Mark Burbridge was shot and killed, another deputy was shot and wounded, and two cars were hijacked at gunpoint by the fleeing felon, one after he shot the driver in the neck, the other driver was kidnapped and forced to drive away. The suspect escaped after he was being sentenced for an earlier murder...

The suspect, Wesley Correa-Carmenaty (who is black) was re-captured and arrested, without further incident, by OPD later in the day.

Ultimately, the discussion is more about how often people of color face deadly retribution from law enforcement vs. white people.

That was one of my problems with the tweet shared previously. I don't believe we need misguided Twitter videos to prove that people can have dealings with cops and NOT get shot. That's about as obvious as a hole in your head. Next, we'll start talking about how the sun is bright and the oceans deep.

In reality, what we should be focusing on is why minorities feel unfairly targeted by law enforcement (and the examples that have given them good reason to fear law enforcement) and what society can do to fix the problems.

 

[RedDenver]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the case from Council Bluffs just a year ago. Deputy Mark Burbridge was shot and killed, another deputy was shot and wounded, and two cars were hijacked at gunpoint by the fleeing felon, one after he shot the driver in the neck, the other driver was kidnapped and forced to drive away. The suspect escaped after he was being sentenced for an earlier murder...

The suspect, Wesley Correa-Carmenaty (who is black) was re-captured and arrested, without further incident, by OPD later in the day.

So what point are you trying to make?