Racism - It's a real thing.

Ric Flair said:
For colleges using race-based affirmative action, it’s certainly true. The truly disadvantaged in our society are the poor and kids who are the first in their families to go to college. Those kids are also disproportionately minorities. So making admission policies favor the poor or first-generation kids will still help the minorities who really need help. But they’ll be fairer and move away from the perversity of judging people by their skin color.
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Can you cite any evidence for your claim?

 
RedDenver said:
Can you cite any evidence for your claim?
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Sure. In this case, it actually affects Asian students the most.

Their court filing said that in 2013, the Harvard Office of Institutional Research created four models that included different racial categories to see what hypothetical percentage of students would be admitted based on various criteria.

When only academics were considered, Asians made up 43 percent of the admitted class, the document said. After accounting for recruited athletes and legacies, that figure dropped to 31 percent, and for extracurricular and personal ratings, 26 percent.



 



The actual share of admitted Asian Americans cited in the report was 19 percent, the Students for Fair Admissions court filing said.

That percentage, more or less, matched up with a fourth model, which predicted the school’s admitted class if admissions decisions were based on eight factors, according to court papers. Those included student gender and race or ethnicity, in addition to academics, extracurriculars and personal ratings, among other things.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/lawsuit-accuses-harvard-discriminating-against-asian-american-applicants-personal-ratings-n884476

 
RedDenver said:
That doesn't show that affluent minorities like "Oprah or Michael Jordan’s kid" would get into college due to their race ahead of disadvantaged poor white students, which was your original claim.
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It actually does. Asian and white students tend to have better standardized test scores and GPAs. To admit the number of black and Hispanic kids they want, they have to play manipulate the numbers. So they require higher scores and grades from groups they want less of and lower scores from those they want more of. It's nothing less than systemic racism. That's what the lawsuit is about.

One result of such a system is to make it tougher for poor white (or Asian) kids to be admitted and easier for all black kids (including rich ones) to get in.

 
Ric Flair said:
Good post. I think the attempts by some liberals to reduce people to membership in certain groups based on race, gender, etc. are a real problem. Why not change affirmative action to benefit first-generation college students, poor people generally, etc. I think it would be far more popular and constitutionally defensible if that was the case.
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I... agree. It's baffling how you seem so close to being reasonable at times.

 
Moiraine said:
I don’t agree with the first sentence. That they do that.

But I think this could be a good idea. The reason affirmative action is a thing is because racist people can’t be trusted to make decisions on these things in an unbiased way. It helps ensure that even if racists are making decisions on admission or employment, the people they’re racist against still have a chance. And I think the last several years have shown us that it’s still needed.

Your idea is good and it would help a lot of minorities but I could still see people abusing it by only helping the types of people who look like them who fall into those categories.
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Agree with Ric to an extent, plenty do just that, the left has its share of toxic identity-politics as-well. The ugly divide we have isn't because of only one side having idiots.  If you require examples I can spam away.

AA I have mixed feelings about because at its core it's a double-edged sword. IMO the ratio of good to bad varies considerably based on how you execute it. Are you giving able folks a little leg-up or are you significantly changing standards to fill a quota?  I know I'm being wishy-washy here but for me AA's appropriateness depends on the degree of usage. 

The idea about basing admission preference on economic status has actually been used to some success in the form of preference shown towards first-generation college applicants. 

 
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I'm not sure I understand how one can judge need blindly just by the fact that someone's parents haven't gone to college.  Plenty of people get into farming or other family businesses - make a decision to not go and are still financially well off.  Many are better off financially than many, including some who have had all their family get four year degrees.

I don't disagree that race shouldn't be a factor, but I also don't think the education level or profession or status of one's parents and family members should matter either.  

Either it's financial need or it isn't.

 
NM11046 said:
I'm not sure I understand how one can judge need blindly just by the fact that someone's parents haven't gone to college.  Plenty of people get into farming or other family businesses - make a decision to not go and are still financially well off.  Many are better off financially than many, including some who have had all their family get four year degrees.

I don't disagree that race shouldn't be a factor, but I also don't think the education level or profession or status of one's parents and family members should matter either.  

Either it's financial need or it isn't.
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The thinking is that there are some unique hurdles that kids face who are the first in their families to attend college. I was lucky enough to have two parents who are college graduates. So when I had an issue with a teacher, a class, an assignment, or just adjusting generally, I had someone to go and talk to. For the first generation kids, they have no one. Parents who didn’t attend college may also be less supportive of kids who do. The lack of a social support network can be really crippling and leads to high dropout rates. 

So there are programs in place, which I would expand, that work to increase the numbers of these kids and then provide them with support once they get in campus. I view college and education generally as the ladder to economic opportunity. So we have to do whatever we can to make sure as many as possible have access to it.

 
Ric Flair said:
The thinking is that there are some unique hurdles that kids face who are the first in their families to attend college. I was lucky enough to have two parents who are college graduates. So when I had an issue with a teacher, a class, an assignment, or just adjusting generally, I had someone to go and talk to. For the first generation kids, they have no one. Parents who didn’t attend college may also be less supportive of kids who do. The lack of a social support network can be really crippling and leads to high dropout rates. 

So there are programs in place, which I would expand, that work to increase the numbers of these kids and then provide them with support once they get in campus. I view college and education generally as the ladder to economic opportunity. So we have to do whatever we can to make sure as many as possible have access to it.
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I totally get the thinking, but it's not so different from the rationale for having diversity allowances.  That takes into account the same philosophy of being behind from the start, not neccesarily having someone to go to etc.

I agree with you on the need for us to help more people get to college, I just think it either needs to be black and white (i.e. financial qualification) or loose, where we could consider those who are first generation, those who are immigrants to this country, those who are diverse etc.  They'd all be in the same bucket.

 
NM11046 said:
I totally get the thinking, but it's not so different from the rationale for having diversity allowances.  That takes into account the same philosophy of being behind from the start, not neccesarily having someone to go to etc.

I agree with you on the need for us to help more people get to college, I just think it either needs to be black and white (i.e. financial qualification) or loose, where we could consider those who are first generation, those who are immigrants to this country, those who are diverse etc.  They'd all be in the same bucket.
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The key differences for me are that racial distinctions fly in the face of American values, divide us along racial lines, and make assumptions that are increasingly untrue...that being a minority means one is poor.

If the goal is to help the disadvantaged, then let's help those who are objectively disadvantaged...the poor. Making assumptions about what people must be based on race is the very definition of racism.

 
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