Riley and the Direction of the Program

[Danny Bateman]

Beck was absolute garbage at QB development. It became clear when we had to outsource TMart's development to Calhoun, and at that point I was OK with dumping Beck because he was never going to get us over the hump.

This is such a ridiculous red herring argument. All serious quarterbacks get private offseason training including Johnny Manziel, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Andrew Luck, etc. Are you claiming all of their coaches are garbage at development?

Well, yeah, they do. But after watching Martinez heave back and shot-put deep balls until he started getting tutelage from Calhoun, I have to question what Beck was actually teaching the kid during his first two years and why he didn't help improve Martinez's consistency as a passer?

We can get in the bushes having a conversation about whether OC's should try to tweak QBs mechanics or leave them alone, because that's a legit question.

TA remained very raw as a passer and never developed very much here under Beck either.

I'm just not big on Beck's abilities as a QB developer. FWIW you mentioned about the one guy that bucks the trend, and Reesing had only a one year data point under Beck.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

Beck was absolute garbage at QB development. It became clear when we had to outsource TMart's development to Calhoun, and at that point I was OK with dumping Beck because he was never going to get us over the hump.

I'm sure Beck must've been just "thrilled" to be tasked with making good ol' Taylor Martinez into a passer. That's like asking a sculptor to make a fine statue out of a lump of mud.

He had other QBs who never developed too....like all of them

Well, as it turned out, if I'm not mistaken, TM and TA DID go on to set some ttl yds records, but no one was ever going to make either into a pure pocket, pro style passer.
Beck also had the pleasure of trying to make Cody Green into a passer, OMG, what did the poor guy do to deserve that?

No, fact is, NE hasn't had a legit pro style pocket passer since going back to the Ferragamo/Humm days, when Oz was experimenting w that stuff--I suppose you could throw Gdowski into that mix. T Gill was a respectable passer as well.

Well, most dual threat QBs don't make the best passers in the world.

But, I get it, WE fired Beck, so he must be sh#t.

 

[Landlord]

Well, yeah, they do. But after watching Martinez heave back and shot-put deep balls until he started getting tutelage from Calhoun, I have to question what Beck was actually teaching the kid during his first two years and why he didn't help improve Martinez's consistency as a passer?

We can get in the bushes having a conversation about whether OC's should try to tweak QBs mechanics or leave them alone, because that's a legit question.

TA remained very raw as a passer and never developed very much here under Beck either.

I'm just not big on Beck's abilities as a QB developer. FWIW you mentioned about the one guy that bucks the trend, and Reesing had only a one year data point under Beck.

Taylor's first year Watson was the OC, and although he looked goofy, he could sling the ball around surprisingly well when he was healthy (watch game tape of Oklahoma State if you haven't in a while). Beck's first year Taylor hadn't entirely recovered from his ankle, and then played with turf toe the majority of the season. The reason Taylor threw like that and regressed was pain avoidance. I'm not a coach, but I don't know what exactly he was supposed to try and do in that situation. Then he got a whole lot better his Junior year, and then even better still his senior year (67% completions, 9 to 1 TD/INT ratio in 3 games) before he got hurt again.

No, fact is, NE hasn't had a legit pro style pocket passer since going back to the Ferragamo/Humm days, when Oz was experimenting w that stuff--I suppose you could throw Gdowski into that mix. T Gill was a respectable passer as well.

... Zac Taylor? Joe Ganz?

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

--I don't know where you're getting this idea from, but you're wrong. First of all, the total amount of yards a quarterback throws for is just as if not more dependent on the play-calling style than it is on that quarterback's talent. You're telling me quarterbacks that aren't able to run end up throwing for more yards? Huh. What a crazy idea. Second, just because he was a tremendous athlete who could run in a spread system doesn't mean Barrett wasn't a great (pocket) passer, which he was. His freshman year passing efficiency was better than Jake Browning, the top pocket passing Heisman finalist quarterback this year, and are right around the numbers put up by Manziel and Winston.

__________________

I respectfully beg to differ, Mr. Landlord. First of all, are you saying that Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers, for e.g., are great because the OC calling the plays are great? If that were the case, then the Pats or Packers could just plug in whoever @ QB and they'd have the same results. That's obviously wrong, I don't even have to elaborate on that.

Second, if you think JT Barrett is in the same league as a passer as Browning, or Winston, or Manziel, or Goff, or Rosen, etc, that's just not true, despite wtever #s he may be throwing up there--dink and dunk mostly. JT Barrett will NOT make it in the NFL as a QB--if any desparate team even gives him a shot--not gong to happen. He'd have more of a chance @ RB, quite frankly.

 

[Landlord]

If that were the case, then the Pats or Packers could just plug in whoever @ QB and they'd have the same results. That's obviously wrong, I don't even have to elaborate on that.

Go ahead and take a lot at Matt Cassel's New England numbers compared to the rest of his career.

Regardless, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that stats are a byproduct of coaching philosophy, not just player talent.

 

[Xmas32]

--I don't know where you're getting this idea from, but you're wrong. First of all, the total amount of yards a quarterback throws for is just as if not more dependent on the play-calling style than it is on that quarterback's talent. You're telling me quarterbacks that aren't able to run end up throwing for more yards? Huh. What a crazy idea. Second, just because he was a tremendous athlete who could run in a spread system doesn't mean Barrett wasn't a great (pocket) passer, which he was. His freshman year passing efficiency was better than Jake Browning, the top pocket passing Heisman finalist quarterback this year, and are right around the numbers put up by Manziel and Winston.

__________________

I respectfully beg to differ, Mr. Landlord. First of all, are you saying that Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers, for e.g., are great because the OC calling the plays are great? If that were the case, then the Pats or Packers could just plug in whoever @ QB and they'd have the same results. That's obviously wrong, I don't even have to elaborate on that.

Second, if you think JT Barrett is in the same league as a passer as Browning, or Winston, or Manziel, or Goff, or Rosen, etc, that's just not true, despite wtever #s he may be throwing up there--dink and dunk mostly. JT Barrett will NOT make it in the NFL as a QB--if any desparate team even gives him a shot--not gong to happen. He'd have more of a chance @ RB, quite frankly.

Jimmy Garoppolo and Matt Cassel both say hello.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/16760/jimmy-garoppolo

There's a link to his 2016 game log, when he played...he looked pretty good.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

The %s look good, but your more pure pocket, pro style guys, a good one, will fling it for 3000+ on ave. Barrett is no pure pocket passer.

I don't know where you're getting this idea from, but you're wrong. First of all, the total amount of yards a quarterback throws for is just as if not more dependent on the play-calling style than it is on that quarterback's talent. You're telling me quarterbacks that aren't able to run end up throwing for more yards? Huh. What a crazy idea. Second, just because he was a tremendous athlete who could run in a spread system doesn't mean Barrett wasn't a great (pocket) passer, which he was. His freshman year passing efficiency was better than Jake Browning, the top pocket passing Heisman finalist quarterback this year, and are right around the numbers put up by Manziel and Winston.

Tim Beck is a garbage OC. He was garbage while at Nebraska and he was garbage at Ohio State.

At Nebraska, our offense regressed every single season. In September, we'd be around 450 yards of offense per game. By mid-November, we were averaging barely 300 (sometimes less) yards per game. Yards and points would slowly dwindle every single game.

A) Don't you think part of that has to do with the idea that we were playing Chattanooga and East Directional State Tech in September, and Michigan/Michigan State/Penn State in November?

Beck was absolute garbage at QB development. It became clear when we had to outsource TMart's development to Calhoun, and at that point I was OK with dumping Beck because he was never going to get us over the hump.

This is such a ridiculous red herring argument. All serious quarterbacks get private offseason training including Johnny Manziel, Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Andrew Luck, etc. Are you claiming all of their coaches are garbage at development?

He had other QBs who never developed too....like all of them

Todd Reesing says hello

He coached WR at Kansas not the QB.

In '07, @ KU, Beck was promoted to "Pass Game Coord/WRs Coach, Ed Warinner was OC:

2007.... appointed as the Passing Game Coordinator at Kansas, and the season proved to be a breakthrough year for the Jayhawks. Kansas finished 121 with the second-best scoring offense nationally, shared the Big 12 Conference North division title with Missouri, and secured a final #7 ranking in both the AP and Coaches polls with their 24-21 win over #5 Virginia Tech in the 2008 Orange Bowl."

(Wiki)

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

Well, yeah, they do. But after watching Martinez heave back and shot-put deep balls until he started getting tutelage from Calhoun, I have to question what Beck was actually teaching the kid during his first two years and why he didn't help improve Martinez's consistency as a passer?

We can get in the bushes having a conversation about whether OC's should try to tweak QBs mechanics or leave them alone, because that's a legit question.

TA remained very raw as a passer and never developed very much here under Beck either.

I'm just not big on Beck's abilities as a QB developer. FWIW you mentioned about the one guy that bucks the trend, and Reesing had only a one year data point under Beck.

Taylor's first year Watson was the OC, and although he looked goofy, he could sling the ball around surprisingly well when he was healthy (watch game tape of Oklahoma State if you haven't in a while). Beck's first year Taylor hadn't entirely recovered from his ankle, and then played with turf toe the majority of the season. The reason Taylor threw like that and regressed was pain avoidance. I'm not a coach, but I don't know what exactly he was supposed to try and do in that situation. Then he got a whole lot better his Junior year, and then even better still his senior year (67% completions, 9 to 1 TD/INT ratio in 3 games) before he got hurt again.

No, fact is, NE hasn't had a legit pro style pocket passer since going back to the Ferragamo/Humm days, when Oz was experimenting w that stuff--I suppose you could throw Gdowski into that mix. T Gill was a respectable passer as well.

... Zac Taylor? Joe Ganz?

Yep, those guys, I was going to mention them but got caught up in the fray. They were respectable, best pocket passers we've had this century. I will also add that Fyfe was prlly a better all around passer than TA, better touch on the ball and fantastic distribution in the MD game, for e.g.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

If that were the case, then the Pats or Packers could just plug in whoever @ QB and they'd have the same results. That's obviously wrong, I don't even have to elaborate on that.

Go ahead and take a lot at Matt Cassel's New England numbers compared to the rest of his career.

Regardless, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that stats are a byproduct of coaching philosophy, not just player talent.

Yeah, Cassell was great @ NE, that's why they got rid of him. Well, its not fair to compare anybody but, say, Rogers, to Brady--arguably the best QB to ever play the game.
But, I take your point, Brady benefits from excellent play calling/ design @ NE. But that mofo MAKES those throws, any throws like about nobody has ever made those throws and if he doesn't, the playbook ain't for sh#t. He's an f'ng surgeon, an assassin, that guy.

 

[Hedley Lamarr]

Beck was absolute garbage at QB development. It became clear when we had to outsource TMart's development to Calhoun, and at that point I was OK with dumping Beck because he was never going to get us over the hump.

I'm sure Beck must've been just "thrilled" to be tasked with making good ol' Taylor Martinez into a passer. That's like asking a sculptor to make a fine statue out of a lump of mud.

He had other QBs who never developed too....like all of them

Well, as it turned out, if I'm not mistaken, TM and TA DID go on to set some ttl yds records, but no one was ever going to make either into a pure pocket, pro style passer.
Beck also had the pleasure of trying to make Cody Green into a passer, OMG, what did the poor guy do to deserve that?

No, fact is, NE hasn't had a legit pro style pocket passer since going back to the Ferragamo/Humm days, when Oz was experimenting w that stuff--I suppose you could throw Gdowski into that mix. T Gill was a respectable passer as well.

Well, most dual threat QBs don't make the best passers in the world.

But, I get it, WE fired Beck, so he must be sh#t.

Beck recruited QBs here didnt he?

 

[Landlord]

But, I take your point, Brady benefits from excellent play calling/ design @ NE. But that mofo MAKES those throws, any throws like about nobody has ever made those throws and if he doesn't, the playbook ain't for sh#t. He's an f'ng surgeon, an assassin, that guy.

Would Tom Brady be any worse as a quarterback if New England ran the ball 70% of the time?

 

[Nebfanatic]

But, I take your point, Brady benefits from excellent play calling/ design @ NE. But that mofo MAKES those throws, any throws like about nobody has ever made those throws and if he doesn't, the playbook ain't for sh#t. He's an f'ng surgeon, an assassin, that guy.

Would Tom Brady be any worse as a quarterback if New England ran the ball 70% of the time?

he would definitely be worse. It would obviously cut into his numbers but more so takes away a lot of in game throws that gave Brady experience and have helped him get to where he is today

 

[Landlord]

But, I take your point, Brady benefits from excellent play calling/ design @ NE. But that mofo MAKES those throws, any throws like about nobody has ever made those throws and if he doesn't, the playbook ain't for sh#t. He's an f'ng surgeon, an assassin, that guy.

Would Tom Brady be any worse as a quarterback if New England ran the ball 70% of the time?

he would definitely be worse. It would obviously cut into his numbers but more so takes away a lot of in game throws that gave Brady experience and have helped him get to where he is today

That's not what I'm asking. If, in 2016, the Patriots ran the ball 70% of the time just for the heck of it, does that magically make Tom Brady a worse quarterback? As in, does his skill set decrease? As in, is what he is capable of as an athlete determined by the OC's playcalls or by his statistics?

 

[Landlord]

Regardless, the original argument was that JT Barrett is a, quote, "crappy" passer.

That's completely ridiculous as a claim.

 

[The Big Nebrowski]

Regardless, the original argument was that JT Barrett is a, quote, "crappy" passer.

That's completely ridiculous as a claim.

Ok, lemme rephrase that. Barrett is a decent, slightly more than servicable passer who will nvr make it as an NFL QB. There, fixed.