Russia
- Thread starter BigRedBuster
- Start date
Decked
Active member
Sounds like we are backing out of peace talks. A day after signing a joint minerals agreement with Ukraine. We have picked a side.
JJ Husker
Donor
So one signed mineral rights deal and you instantaneously forget everything Trump has said and done pertaining to Ukraine and Zelensky? And if he truly has chosen Ukraine, is extortion for profit the way we want the USA handling global issues of right and wrong, freedom, democracy?
Personally, my money is still on Trump fúcking UKR and Z before it’s over. Just like he’s done to virtually anyone who has made a business deal with him.
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Decked
Active member
Economics should always at least be on the forefront. Fiscally the USA is bleeding. Though that same thought of cutting aid should not just apply to Ukraine either. It should also continue on to Israel as well. Or anyone for that matter. Of course morality has to play a role too.
I think that Ukraine is more likely to get a lot more systems and information sharing with a deal in place. I think both parties here benefit hence the acceptance. I wouldn't have worded that as previously above. It is obvious this administration wanted this to end to restore economic trade between Russia and the USA while establishing peace. Granted...I think everyone that has even followed this from a distance realizes the likelihood they ever had to make a deal was near 0. Putin wants all of Ukraine.
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JJ Husker
Donor
Morality has to be feature numero uno when it comes to providing military aid or fighting wars across the globe. The economics of what we can and will provide should simply be a function of what we can and can’t afford to do and how dire the threat is.
Forcing a democracy on the frontlines between NATO and Russia to sign over mineral rights is kinda gross imo. Should we ask for or expect some of that assistance to be repaid later? Sure, but not under the alternative of that country losing their sovereignty and being wiped out at the hands of a dictator like Putin. Trump is just a POS.
Decked
Active member
The likely scenario and what we have already seen is that we haven't and will not give Ukraine what they need to outright reclaim their previous borders prior to this invasion let alone from 2013-2014. I don't doubt that they may win the long war but they certainly are not going to boot the Russian's entirely. And Russia is of little threat to us directly. Perhaps if you are a former soviet block state than yes. But Russia's military is far weaker than we all thought. they are not the little sisters of the poor but they are certainly no match for us. It is all hands on deck to counter China at this point and we are saving stock, men, & money for ourselves with horribly low production of various systems needed in warfare.
But signing a treaty likely increases the amount of available equipment you have at your disposal when the country at the other end of the line needs what you have. It creates incentive to keep you upright other than just morally. Unfortunately, morality is not enough when dollars are at stake as we all know very well.
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JJ Husker
Donor
Yeah I’m sure with Trump involved, Ukraine will have to cede more land than if he wasn’t involved. Crimea is a little trickier since it’s already been gone longer but the US should be supporting a return to borders the way they were 3-4 years ago. All Trump cares about is the money aspect. He could give a fúck about what is right or wrong. I doubt this newest deal provides any guarantees whatsoever to Ukraine.
Decked
Active member
Even Europe hasn't given Ukraine the equipment to do this. They physically do not have enough men or equipment for this. It is a literal pipedream. Morality aside.
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JJ Husker
Donor
Yeah…France and England and much of Europe didn’t have enough men or equipment to handle Germany 80 years ago either.
funhusker
Active member
I'm not sure we would want Europe to send any men to Ukraine, at least "boots on the ground". This could really go off the rails at that point.
Decked
Active member
Unrelated. Im sorry. Also doesn't make a ton of sense considering the Soviets pretty much were the only reason England wasn't obliterated. France got the s#!t beat out of them.
Still though they are just not going to reclaim that. I wish they could. But it is not feasible. The last counteroffensive showed as much. They are better off being selective and playing a defensive style role at this moment.
It would be another world war. I was more so meaning Ukraine doesn't have the manpower. They certainly do not have the equipment either.
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Why didn’t Obama get that land back if you are expecting Trump to get the more recent Russian expansion land back? Or why didn’t Biden get any land back in a deal?
Don’t get me wrong, I hope Ukraine gets as much as possible back, but isn’t this 2 different standards?
JJ Husker
Donor
Oh it’s related. At some point people/countries have to decide how much they’re willing to take from an aggressor. I’m not advocating for boots on the ground but there is a lot more the US could do that would be the right thing instead of just f#&%ing the victim out of some mineral rights. And I also believe a unified Europe could walk right through Russia. But yeah, it gets real ugly that way.
JJ Husker
Donor
It’s not two different standards. Biden was providing assistance to help prevent Russia from running through Ukraine. Basically a proxy war that helped both of us and Nato.
Honestly I don’t recall if Obama did anything when they took over Crimea. But it was a quicker less involved deal that, to me anyway, seemed to be more related to the boundaries established when the USSR splintered rather than an out of the blue invasion of sovereign territory.
The reason I don’t feel I’m holding Trump to a different standard than Biden is simple. Biden did things to help Ukraine. Trump has done things to relieve the pressure from Russia, actually making it tougher for UKR to succeed. There is no standard to compare. It has been two completely different approaches and for different reasons. Biden helped the victim Ukraine. Trump has been effectively helping Russia the aggressor and seems to be overly concerned about any money that can be made. That doesn’t sit well with me.