Star Wars: Rogue One

zoogs said:
"Every person in the Star Wars movies who is portrayed engaging in real-time long-distance communications is a member of the government in some capacity: Senator Palpatine / Darth Sidious, Darth Vader, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and the Jedi Council. The Republic created a system in which only politicians and high-ranking members of a military religious order could use long-distance signals, and that set up the conditions in which the whole galaxy succumbed to a thinly veiled reference to Nazism."

This may not have been intentional, but there always was this political element in Star Wars, of how a brutal but dominant force such as the Empire (Nazis in space, naturally) could arise, how freedom could survive and struggle against it. It's not surprising that they hit upon some really meaningful themes. The freedoms we hold dear require a constant vigilance against conditions that allow them to be undermined.
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This ^^^ is precisely why I shake my head in disbelief at the people who whine that these new Star Wars films were "ruined" by sjw warriors.  Every single Star Wars film has social justice themes running through the main story.  But right, "Disney ruined Star Wars..."  

Even George Lucas said that the Empire was a proxy for nazis.  Hell Stormtroopers is a name taken directly from the German language to describe a group of nazi soldiers.

 
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@Enhance, here's why Rogue One is the best Star Wars ever:

1. It takes a person who at first doesn't care about what happens and she changes into someone who realizes that someone has to do something.  Theme: From apathy to action.

2. Throwing a bit of stain onto the Rebellion.  As Casian says (paraphrasing), "I've done terrible things..."  Someone mentioned it earlier in this thread and I agree: Most people view the Rebellion of heroic goody goodies and the Empire as evil.  Episodes 4-6 and 1-3 cemented the notion that good guys were good and bad guys were bad.  Rogue One changed that and added more nuance.  

Theme: Does the ends justify the means?

3. A small group decides to take on a mission they realize they have little hope in completing and yet they do it anyway.

Theme: Trying to redeem and make up for past sins.

4. The tricky line between "freedom fighter" and "terrorist" and how, from a certain point of view, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

Theme: How far is too far in fighting for what you believe in?

The points above, and add in the absolutely stunning CGI, the intensity of the film, and the fact that none of the heroes survive, made Rogue One the best. 

 
@Making Chimichangas the themes are well and good but, in my opinion, they're poorly executed and this is why I ultimately think Rogue One is a bad "movie."

1) The first 20 minutes are incredibly muddy and obscure. We bounce between multiple perspectives on multiple different planets and we're given no real reason to care about any of the characters outside of Jyn. And, even then, the most we get out of her is her essentially looking like a pissy 16-year-old who got caught stealing a candy bar and is waiting for mom/dad to come pick her up from the police station.

2) It's an unnecessary story. The events surrounding Rogue One are a bit pointless and (quite literally) every single major character dies by the end because they have to die; otherwise, the original trilogy wouldn't make any sense. That means they have just one movie to make me care about something and introduce to me these impactful characters in some meaningful way. They don't, which made me end up wishing it had just been 90 minutes of Vader mowing down the entire production crew with particular hatred focused on the script writers.

3) Star Wars is supposed to be fun and Rogue One isn't. This is largely due to the plot issues, design and the other things I brought up in points one and two. However, this quote from Esquire accurately summarizes my concern:

Star Wars certainly has the capacity to go dark and remain good. The Empire Strikes Back is a dark, dark film in which the hero of the film has his hand cut off and then learns his father is basically Hitler. In The Force Awakens, a troubled son actually kills his own father. These are films literally about a "Dark Side"—there's going to be some darkness. The success of the Star Wars films, though, is that, through all the death and darkness, they remain romantic, swashbuckling adventures. Put simply: Star Wars movies are fun.

Rogue One is not fun. It's got a ton of action, and that last act certainly pummels the audience into admitting some level of enjoyment, however begrudgingly. It's entertaining in parts, but it's missing that key component of romantic fun at its heart that makes Star Wars, well… Star Wars. It's hard to imagine how the solemn self-seriousness of Rogue One would lead into the wide-eyed adventurous spirit of A New Hope. In some ways even the awful Revenge of the Sith—a markedly worse film than Rogue One —still serves as a better bridge to the original 1977 film by upping the campy melodrama to an absurd degree. Episode III and IV feel completely different from one another, but they do share a common desire for fun, despite one being far more successful at it than the other.
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I'll concur that those are worthy themes for a movie and some aspects of Rogue One are enjoyable, but they're so poorly executed that it ultimately means nothing to me. I can rewatch every Star Wars film and find enjoyable, redeemable qualities, but Rogue One is so obtuse to me that I have seen it only twice and will never watch it again.

 
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That Esquire reviewer entirely missed the point of Rogue One if they expected "wide-eyed adventurous spirit" or "romantic fun."  Rogue One was a story of a suicide mission, so expecting adventure or romance is bizarre.  It's a dark movie, intentionally the darkest of all the movies, and it's there to tell one specific story - which it does reasonably well. 

The characters don't need development because they're all going to die.  We know this going in.  And that's OK, because they're secondary to the story - getting the plans to the Death Star.

I didn't mind the planet-hopping because that's the society they live in. It's as easy to go planet-to-planet for them as it is for us to take a plane to the next continent or drive to the next town. 

Calling it an unnecessary story is weird. Do we need to see this story?  No, I suppose not.  Is it good to see it if we can?   For me, sure. More Star Wars stuff is good.  Right?

 
The Esquire writer explains his position pretty well and I 100% agree with him. I have never watched Rogue One and had fun and that's a huge part of the Star Wars allure, regardless of whether or not it's a dark story. And, since I value that, it's impossible to enjoy a movie like Rogue One.

But, that still pales in comparison to the overwhelming writing and story telling issues. A movie where most characters die can still make you care and tell a strong story. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. The Perfect Storm. Cloverfield. Hell, even Titanic. Those movies found a way to make me care way more about the end result than Rogue One. The planet-hopping in itself is not the issue but the story-telling surrounding it. Star Wars almost demands planet hopping but it's what happens on the planets that matters, not the planet hopping itself.

The unnecessary aspect is, admittedly, my most debatable opinion. I might have found more enjoyment had it been better executed. Set aside my interest in it being 'fun' - I just wanted a well-written story with better developed characters. I believe that's an achievable goal even if their fate is pre-determined.

 
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Enhance said:
The unnecessary aspect is, admittedly, my most debatable opinion. I might have found more enjoyment had it been better executed. Set aside my interest in it being 'fun' - I just wanted a well-written story with better developed characters. I believe that's an achievable goal even if their fate is pre-determined.
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Certainly understandable, and I agree the writing/character development wasn't as good as it could have been. 

 
Enhance said:
@Making Chimichangas the themes are well and good but, in my opinion, they're poorly executed and this is why I ultimately think Rogue One is a bad "movie."

1) The first 20 minutes are incredibly muddy and obscure. We bounce between multiple perspectives on multiple different planets and we're given no real reason to care about any of the characters outside of Jyn. And, even then, the most we get out of her is her essentially looking like a pissy 16-year-old who got caught stealing a candy bar and is waiting for mom/dad to come pick her up from the police station.

2) It's an unnecessary story. The events surrounding Rogue One are a bit pointless and (quite literally) every single major character dies by the end because they have to die; otherwise, the original trilogy wouldn't make any sense. That means they have just one movie to make me care about something and introduce to me these impactful characters in some meaningful way. They don't, which made me end up wishing it had just been 90 minutes of Vader mowing down the entire production crew with particular hatred focused on the script writers.

3) Star Wars is supposed to be fun and Rogue One isn't. This is largely due to the plot issues, design and the other things I brought up in points one and two. However, this quote from Esquire accurately summarizes my concern:

I'll concur that those are worthy themes for a movie and some aspects of Rogue One are enjoyable, but they're so poorly executed that it ultimately means nothing to me. I can rewatch every Star Wars film and find enjoyable, redeemable qualities, but Rogue One is so obtuse to me that I have seen it only twice and will never watch it again.
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I'll respond properly when I am able to use my laptop.  Posting responses via smartphone isn't exactly fun.

 
Making Chimichangas said:
@Enhance, here's why Rogue One is the best Star Wars ever:

1. It takes a person who at first doesn't care about what happens and she changes into someone who realizes that someone has to do something.  Theme: From apathy to action.

2. Throwing a bit of stain onto the Rebellion.  As Casian says (paraphrasing), "I've done terrible things..."  Someone mentioned it earlier in this thread and I agree: Most people view the Rebellion of heroic goody goodies and the Empire as evil.  Episodes 4-6 and 1-3 cemented the notion that good guys were good and bad guys were bad.  Rogue One changed that and added more nuance.  

Theme: Does the ends justify the means?

3. A small group decides to take on a mission they realize they have little hope in completing and yet they do it anyway.

Theme: Trying to redeem and make up for past sins.

4. The tricky line between "freedom fighter" and "terrorist" and how, from a certain point of view, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

Theme: How far is too far in fighting for what you believe in?

The points above, and add in the absolutely stunning CGI, the intensity of the film, and the fact that none of the heroes survive, made Rogue One the best. 
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Me and you think a like. Rogue One is my favorite Star Wars movie. 

 
Dewiz said:
Me and you think a like. Rogue One is my favorite Star Wars movie. 
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I concur.  Even now, Rogue One is still my #1 Star Wars movie with The Last Jedi and Empire Strikes Back tied for #2.

#3 A New Hope

#4 Return of the Jedi

#5 The Force Awakens

The prequels...they don't even make my list.

 
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Making Chimichangas said:
Stories can be told in any way the teller chooses.  And Rogue One, whether you agree or not, does fulfill the traditional three act story.  It may not be to your satisfaction, but that's entirely subjective.
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..do you know who you're talking to? I love Rogue One, and think the writing (while having some problems) is really good.

 
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