Tangent Thread - Run the Damn Ball!!!

[The Dude]

Well if you're less skeptical of that number, then what do you want. For us to go from rushing the ball at the third-highest rate in the Big Ten to the first? Is that changing much?

You are misunderstanding the broader point. Alabama and Ohio State, traditionally power rushing teams, looked at the landscape and future of where football was going and said, 'We should stop doing this and throw a lot more." Think about Nick Saban doing that. Every piece of data we have say rushing more than passing, no matter the talent, is the vastly less efficient way to play.

I want to be the best rushing team in the nation. Especially if the the landscape is going the other way.  If every defense is set up to stop the pass, I want to pound the absolute f#&% out of the rock.  

Trying to mimic the landscape has been a catastrophe over the last 17 years.  Particularly catastrophic in the Frost era.

Maybe this year will be different somehow. 

Whipple likes to throw it 35-40 times per.  So if you're right, there should be zero reason we can't at least win the division.  What with one of the lightest schedules Nebraska has ever had.

 

[lo country]

It's obvious something is missing.  We haven't had a winning season in 6 years.....We have tried WCO, whatever Riley was, and whatever Frost is trying.  I'm a run the ball guy.  I'd be happy with balanced.  Unsure where the 70%+ number keeps getting mentioned.  Bottom line, looking purely at our record, whatever we try, it hasn't been good enough to win.  That's what needs to be fixed.  ST is the easiest area, but that alone gets another 2-3 wins...So no we sit at 5-7 or 6-6....Still not good enough.  

TO had a scheme that worked.  The guys could execute it in their sleep.  A lot of formations (eye candy) and a limited set of plays run form those.  Kind of like what CC does now.....We need to establish a running game that's predicated on power IMO.  I like counters, traps, 12/13 personnel.  With the TE's we have, I'd run 12 as a base.  Use Chance as an HB, use 2 back sets etc....Use some misdirection.  There's room for the triple option (like CC) as well as some RPO.  Unsure when we had a QB that makes the correct reads on the zone read options.  Seems like we were wrong about as much as we were right.  We don't have a QB currently (perhaps with Whip we can) that will win a game with his arm.  We also sadly, do not have a bell cow back for a running game (again yet)......

I was listening to Rece Davis today on ESPN radio.  He identified a problem with UGA that to me, spoke to NU and our issues. He said UGA against Bama played with too much "power"  Like turning a stereo up to 10. Yes you have max power, but there's some distortion.  Dial the intensity back to maximize power with performance.  Said they just "try too hard".  I think that's us.  Explains a lot.  One loss games and they just push too hard.  Need to dial it back.  Don't know how, but might be an issue.  

 

[Jeremy]

I want to be the best rushing team in the nation. Especially if the the landscape is going the other way.  If every defense is set up to stop the pass, I want to pound the absolute f#&% out of the rock.  

Trying to mimic the landscape has been a catastrophe over the last 17 years.  Particularly catastrophic in the Frost era.

Maybe this year will be different somehow. 

Whipple likes to throw it 35-40 times per.  So if you're right, there should be zero reason we can't at least win the division.  What with one of the lightest schedules Nebraska has ever had.

Preach, brother. Couldn't have said it better myself. 

 

[BigRedBuster]

It's obvious something is missing.  We haven't had a winning season in 6 years.....We have tried WCO, whatever Riley was, and whatever Frost is trying.  I'm a run the ball guy.  I'd be happy with balanced.  Unsure where the 70%+ number keeps getting mentioned.  Bottom line, looking purely at our record, whatever we try, it hasn't been good enough to win.  That's what needs to be fixed.  ST is the easiest area, but that alone gets another 2-3 wins...So no we sit at 5-7 or 6-6....Still not good enough.  

TO had a scheme that worked.  The guys could execute it in their sleep.  A lot of formations (eye candy) and a limited set of plays run form those.  Kind of like what CC does now.....We need to establish a running game that's predicated on power IMO.  I like counters, traps, 12/13 personnel.  With the TE's we have, I'd run 12 as a base.  Use Chance as an HB, use 2 back sets etc....Use some misdirection.  There's room for the triple option (like CC) as well as some RPO.  Unsure when we had a QB that makes the correct reads on the zone read options.  Seems like we were wrong about as much as we were right.  We don't have a QB currently (perhaps with Whip we can) that will win a game with his arm.  We also sadly, do not have a bell cow back for a running game (again yet)......

I was listening to Rece Davis today on ESPN radio.  He identified a problem with UGA that to me, spoke to NU and our issues. He said UGA against Bama played with too much "power"  Like turning a stereo up to 10. Yes you have max power, but there's some distortion.  Dial the intensity back to maximize power with performance.  Said they just "try too hard".  I think that's us.  Explains a lot.  One loss games and they just push too hard.  Need to dial it back.  Don't know how, but might be an issue.  

I'm a firm believer that the scheme wasn't the problem this year on either offense or defense.  It was special teams and O line as far as the biggest failures.  You bring both of those up to a respectable decent level, and we win a lot more games and the attitude towards the program is very different.

 

[lo country]

I'm a firm believer that the scheme wasn't the problem this year on either offense or defense.  It was special teams and O line as far as the biggest failures.  You bring both of those up to a respectable decent level, and we win a lot more games and the attitude towards the program is very different.

Regardless of what O we try it won't work with pi$$ poor OL play.  Just looking at PFF, we appeared to be better at run blocking.  Dom has an uphill lift for sure.  It just becomes a circular discussion that goes towards trying to win more.  ie does the passing game open the run or does the run game open the pass game.  Can we actually be really good at both?  Lead the B1G in rushing and have a QB north of 70% completion rate?  We have a proven QB coach and receiver coach.  Hoping we get a quality RB coach. Busch was good in the past with ST's...

 

[84HuskerLaw]

Regardless of what O we try it won't work with pi$$ poor OL play.  Just looking at PFF, we appeared to be better at run blocking.  Dom has an uphill lift for sure.  It just becomes a circular discussion that goes towards trying to win more.  ie does the passing game open the run or does the run game open the pass game.  Can we actually be really good at both?  Lead the B1G in rushing and have a QB north of 70% completion rate?  We have a proven QB coach and receiver coach.  Hoping we get a quality RB coach. Busch was good in the past with ST's...

How many starting QBs on P-5 teams had 70% + completions in then past three years, that had 200 ypg ave or better?  Doubt many.  Neb has never had a QB with that elite accuracy.  
60% seems doable most years as long as you have a heavy dose of short balls.  Idk but I do think you need a top 5 QB every year.  Neb has never had that. Heck - not sure Bama has. They recruit super guys all over.  Neb just can’t do that and try to get same guys as everybody else.  Imo. 

 

[lo country]

How many starting QBs on P-5 teams had 70% + completions in then past three years, that had 200 ypg ave or better?  Doubt many.  Neb has never had a QB with that elite accuracy.  
60% seems doable most years as long as you have a heavy dose of short balls.  Idk but I do think you need a top 5 QB every year.  Neb has never had that. Heck - not sure Bama has. They recruit super guys all over.  Neb just can’t do that and try to get same guys as everybody else.  Imo. 

And therein lies the conundrum.  I think it is "easier" to find an "elite" RB than it is to find an "elite" QB.  Developing our guys would be a good start.

 

[84HuskerLaw]

And therein lies the conundrum.  I think it is "easier" to find an "elite" RB than it is to find an "elite" QB.  Developing our guys would be a good start.

It’s not just RBs but yes there are good RBs than QBs with elite pass skills.  O lines to block for a strong run can be built in the weight room.  Tenopir did it for decades basically.  WRs can be very average as well.  Build a Blackshirt level defense, excell in STs and find an offense that few others use so you can compete scholarship and walkon-wise.  
 

Osborne built both pass and run based schemes ‘69-‘81 ish and ‘82 - ‘97.  He was one of the offensive FB minds in cfb history.  He moved away from the pass/run to the run/run/run/pass because he could not beat Oklahoma and their wishbone.  He had to get better athletes / players.  But he also knew those ‘70-‘71 teams were unbeaten because of great defense and STs.  
 

In addition to recruiting disadvantages, the pass reliant offenses face adverse weather (wind, cold, rain, snow) especially on the plains.  It may actually be less of a wind issue in the Big Ten away from Lincoln, and stadiums are bigger so may be less wind on field.  We’ve been lucky recent years but that will be issue again.  
 

I freely admit I love option fb but will be quite happy to win the Big Ten with 500 yards passing and 7 TDs.  But I it’ll take those numbers several games a year to do it imo.  Very unlikely to happen.  

 

[Mavric]

Cherry pick facts?  ST is part of red zone.  Like the offense is part of it.  We were 107th....Pretty factual...

Yes. ST is part.  Offense is part.  The part that the offense was responsible for was very good.  The part that the ST was responsible for was terrible.  I'm not sure why you insist on fighting that so hard when the stats are very clear.

You are the one that threw put the Bama stats.....What did you mean exactly.  

I was surprised that we were that high in yards per attempt.  I doubt many would have guess a ranking anywhere near that high.  But saying we were equal to Alabama in one stat is nothing resembling what you went on to accuse me of.

And the self righteous crap gets old.  And our pretty good O has yet to beat a team with a pulse in 4 years.  Or win a one score game.  Or go bowling......Good fun indeed.  

You accuse me of being self-righteous while being totally closed-minded to any stats that oppose your opinion and have to resort to name-calling.  That's pretty rich.

 

[lo country]

Yes. ST is part.  Offense is part.  The part that the offense was responsible for was very good.  The part that the ST was responsible for was terrible.  I'm not sure why you insist on fighting that so hard when the stats are very clear.

I was surprised that we were that high in yards per attempt.  I doubt many would have guess a ranking anywhere near that high.  But saying we were equal to Alabama in one stat is nothing resembling what you went on to accuse me of.

You accuse me of being self-righteous while being totally closed-minded to any stats that oppose your opinion and have to resort to name-calling.  That's pretty rich.

The stats can be made to read anything we want.  Our ST's are horrible.  I have pointed that out multiple times.  I just see that as one issue for the worst season in NU football since I have been alive.  

And I wasn't accusing you.  I drew a conclusion based on an assumption. When a person  references two teams in a positive light, it is a comparison.  Pretty much like we all did when holding OU to a historical low under Riley.  The inference was our D was solid.  Same with holding Walker to less than 100 yards.  We patted ourselveson the back that we were elite.  Or the charts posted that continually showed us in the upper right quadrant with teams like Bama, UGA and OSU...It infers that "statistically" we are as good as those schools.  

It's just your delivery at times the whole "straw man argument", "moving the goal posts", refusing to see any other points, cherry picking stats, totally close minded  etc....It comes across as you are right and others are wrong. That you are most learned person on the board.  Or not realizing that differing opinions do not make a person right or wrong.  Just my .02.  I reckon you and I will simply continue to disagree.  No worries.  

 

[ZRod]

Unless it's an Iso.  Then by definition it's an Iso.

Fair enough, but I think most lay-fans would consider power football to be iso, counter, trap, buck sweep, and the power run; which we run all those plenty with the exception of trap. I haven't seen a trap play in years and I really wish we would run it. It was one of my favorite plays as a lineman.

Something else that becomes tricky is how do you define iso vs power in a spread offense. Modern power runs in a spread offense don't require a pulling guard to kick the end man out. Instead he can be isolated with the QB read to take him out of the play and only use one pulling lineman, an H back, or an H back in motion as an insert (which we love to do). We even take it a step further and add the orbit motion and run a triple option out of an almost indetical look.

Man, I don't know. 

Do you have any examples of Frost calling power runs regularly?

Sometimes we would pull a guy as a kick out blocker but I don't remember there also being a lead blocker.  

First drive against Iowa we run one true power run and bunch of iso insert:

On 4th & 1 you have your "kick out" block, but I'm pretty sure this is an iso insert that becomes a read because Iowa is in an under front and has 6 guys in the box, out numbering us play side. I think that means Logan has to read off the end man to account for the numbers disadvantage. Allen is the lead blocker but he has to take the first guy who shows, which happens to be the DE, otherwise he would have continue through the hole and blocked a LB or Safety. Pretty heads up by Allen otherwise the DE blows the play up.

A little later 3rd & 1 we run QB iso out of an empty backfield.

1st & Goal power read where Logan keeps it and Allen leads him around the edge. Allen has a sick feint on the DE here to sell the dive action off the read!

2nd & goal with a neat QB power. Brewington comes in motion as the kick out guy and Yant is your lead blocker. Boom, TD! A funky new age take on an old school power play. We run this same play again for a TD in the 3rd quarter and Brewington absolutely destroys the CB!

So basically starting the game out with smash mouth power football. We continue to run iso on the next scoring drive and mix in the orbit motion for some triple option out of the iso look. 

I guess I look at Frost's best season was year 1.  If the previous staff did so poorly, why did he perform "his best" with other guys kids (save AM).  It shouldn't take a coach year 5 to get to a winning record.  And that should concern everyone.  Throw in the fact that most fans could see that the O was a s#!t show each year and getting worse, that it took our HC, a recognized offensive guru, year 5 and 4 losing seasons to finally make that change.  This is the record Frost earned.  This team is his.  That is where I am at.  Again, if it wasn't Frost not one person could still defend him.  

5 years with no bowl games.....Kids we are recruiting now and last year have never seen the Huskers in a bowl.  That's got to change.

I mean you also have to factor in strength of schedule and the conference strength as a whole. Frost's first season was one of his easiest. 2020 I'm not even going to count, the whole year was f#&%ed up by COVID. It happened, but that season doesn't tell you much (look at Penn St, Michigan, and Michigan St). Hindsight though, Austin probably should have been asked to move on with Walters. Held should have been on the hot seat along with Mario.

 

[BigRedBuster]

I mean you also have to factor in strength of schedule and the conference strength as a whole. Frost's first season was one of his easiest. 2020 I'm not even going to count, the whole year was f#&%ed up by COVID. It happened, but that season doesn't tell you much (look at Penn St, Michigan, and Michigan St). Hindsight though, Austin probably should have been asked to move on with Walters. Held should have been on the hot seat along with Mario.

I think if 2020 would have been a normal season with our probable results, coaching changes would have happened last year instead of this year.  Yes, in hindsight, it should have been evident.  But, here we are and the changes have been made.

 

[84HuskerLaw]

You obviously don't recall Osborne's pro style offense of the 70's and the quarterbacks we sent to the NFL.

We scored a lot of points - many TDs during the Devaney-Osborne-Solich era.  And despite the loosening of rules to promote offense, especially passing, etc this century, all these “new fashioned” offenses brought to us by Callahan, Pelini, Riley and Frost, seem

to be decreasing the points scored, points allowed, decreasing the wins, etc.  Even to the point where we are really worried about fan interest and attendance.  This all happening at the critical time in history where fan support and money derived therefrom will determine the program’s survival as college sports become professional - financially.    The “best team money can buy” is fully here!  It’s gonna take bigger bucks to hang with the big dogs.  Not sure DONU has a chance without being the exception to about all the conventional rules. 

 

[Hilltop]

We scored a lot of points - many TDs during the Devaney-Osborne-Solich era.  And despite the loosening of rules to promote offense, especially passing, etc this century, all these “new fashioned” offenses brought to us by Callahan, Pelini, Riley and Frost, seem

to be decreasing the points scored, points allowed, decreasing the wins, etc.  Even to the point where we are really worried about fan interest and attendance.  This all happening at the critical time in history where fan support and money derived therefrom will determine the program’s survival as college sports become professional - financially.    The “best team money can buy” is fully here!  It’s gonna take bigger bucks to hang with the big dogs.  Not sure DONU has a chance without being the exception to about all the conventional rules. 

The data would seem to disagree with you... It makes more sense to follow the actual trend in college football.  Modern spread offenses score more points.  

 

[84HuskerLaw]

The data would seem to disagree with you... It makes more sense to follow the actual trend in college football.  Modern spread offenses score more points.  

View attachment 19408

I am talking about NU offense scoring.  I already said offenses in general have been favored by rules changes etc. Defenses give up more points on average- just a guess but maybe 7 pts a game.  
i am guessing Devaney-Osborne-Solich averaged 33-37 ppg.  Frost in the mid 20s by contrast. I don’t have time to research this but for those who have ready access to all the historical stats, I’ll be happy to be corrected.