The Democrat Utopia

Ulty said:
Yes, going from "picking on" to "sexual harassment" is indeed a big escalation. In order to justify those charges, especially as a Title IX violation instead of your garden variety teasing/bullying, the totality of the alleged conduct better be pretty darn severe. If not, then the school messed up by filing these charges. I tried to look up the "lots of articles" you mentioned for more facts, or at least the actual allegations, but the facts of the case aren't available, only outrage from parents and attorneys who apparently don't understand Title IX. 

Other than the local news outlets in Wisconsin, the only national places where this is being picked up appears to be Fox News, the Daily Mail, and the New York Post. A schoolyard harassment case is certainly not national news, yet this particular case is being promoted by the right wing outlets to further their war against the tyranny of pronouns. The parents and attorneys are also recklessly putting their kids' names out there, now this is on the world wide web forever and ever, without actually completing the investigation. I guess stoking ignorant outrage for the culture war is more important than actually protecting your kids.  
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The more I think about this, I don’t think this is sexual harassment. That is way too big of an escalation.  It’s likely schoolyard bullying. Some kids decided to pick on someone that wanted a plural pronoun. That warrants a call to the parents first. If that doesn’t work, suspension. If that didn’t work, a longer suspension then expulsion. Done. No national news needed. 

 
nic said:
The more I think about this, I don’t think this is sexual harassment. That is way too big of an escalation.  It’s likely schoolyard bullying. Some kids decided to pick on someone that wanted a plural pronoun. That warrants a call to the parents first. If that doesn’t work, suspension. If that didn’t work, a longer suspension then expulsion. Done. No national news needed. 
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You may be right (and it is likely that you are right), but what actual facts are you basing these thoughts on? If it is indeed schoolyard bullying, and if said bullying was based on sex or gender, that's when it potentially falls under the definition of sexual harassment. Maybe they already tried calling the parents and dealing with it another way. Obviously the parents don't think that junior did anything wrong (but notice that the articles and attorney statements do not actually deny the conduct).

I absolutely agree that no national news is needed. But it was the parents of the accused perpetrator who took it to the media. If I am accused of something, whether I did it or not, the last thing I would want is to broadcast the accusation and my alleged misbehavior to the entire world. Thanks mom!

 
Ulty said:
You may be right (and it is likely that you are right), but what actual facts are you basing these thoughts on? If it is indeed schoolyard bullying, and if said bullying was based on sex or gender, that's when it potentially falls under the definition of sexual harassment. Maybe they already tried calling the parents and dealing with it another way. Obviously the parents don't think that junior did anything wrong (but notice that the articles and attorney statements do not actually deny the conduct).

I absolutely agree that no national news is needed. But it was the parents of the accused perpetrator who took it to the media. If I am accused of something, whether I did it or not, the last thing I would want is to broadcast the accusation and my alleged misbehavior to the entire world. Thanks mom!
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Misuse of pronouns is not sexual harassment in my opinion. If a boy tells another boy he plays baseball like a girl (from the Sand Lot)….just kidding. You are correct in that we do not know the full story yet. Perhaps there was inappropriate touching or other factors. We also do not know what recourse the school took other than the mother’s claim that the school only sent an email that a sexual harassment claim was headed her way. We should be able to verify the email. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. 

 
nic said:
Misuse of pronouns is not sexual harassment in my opinion.
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I assume that you identify as a man and use he/him pronouns. Is that accurate?

What would you say if I started referring to you as "she" or "her," or if I told everyone that you were not really a man. You have chosen to be called "nic" on this board, but what if I decide to start calling you Nikki or Nicole or Nikkita. What if we end up using the same restroom and laugh at you and tell you that the ladies room is down the hall. What if you ask me politely to stop, but this only intensifies my actions. I refuse to acknowledge that you are a man and am now mocking you for being feminine. My friends join me, also referring to you as "she" and "Nicole." This goes on for months. 

Would you consider this intentional misgendering to be harassment? Why or why not? 

 
Has anyone seen the actual Title IX complaint? Sexual harassment is a different thing than sex-based harassment, and the distinction would be important. 

Sexual harassment has a distinct sexual component. Unwanted touching, groping, comments about sexual acts, etc. Sex-based harassment can be something like treating women differently than treating men, or giving women preferential job status or giving men a higher salary because of their gender. Sex-based harassment sounds like what's going on here.

What the charge should be (I don't think there should be a Title IX charge here, based on the minimal information I've seen, mind you) is that the kids harassed a student based on their sex. Not "sexual harassment." It sounds pedantic but it's an important distinction. 

If the charge is sex-based harassment and not sexual harassment, it's no surprise that the parent would read sex harassment as sexual harassment. It would also not surprise me if the Title IX complaint was created by the school staff that they may mistakenly accuse them of the wrong thing. People conflate these two things all the time.

 
knapplc said:
Has anyone seen the actual Title IX complaint? Sexual harassment is a different thing than sex-based harassment, and the distinction would be important. 

Sexual harassment has a distinct sexual component. Unwanted touching, groping, comments about sexual acts, etc. Sex-based harassment can be something like treating women differently than treating men, or giving women preferential job status or giving men a higher salary because of their gender. Sex-based harassment sounds like what's going on here.

What the charge should be (I don't think there should be a Title IX charge here, based on the minimal information I've seen, mind you) is that the kids harassed a student based on their sex. Not "sexual harassment." It sounds pedantic but it's an important distinction. 

If the charge is sex-based harassment and not sexual harassment, it's no surprise that the parent would read sex harassment as sexual harassment. It would also not surprise me if the Title IX complaint was created by the school staff that they may mistakenly accuse them of the wrong thing. People conflate these two things all the time.
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Those are great points, and no, the actual allegations have not been revealed. We only have the spin from the parents of one of the accused students.

Supporting your thought, the most recent article I could find indicates that this case may indeed be a matter of gender-based harassment, but not necessarily sexual in nature:

Lora Zimmer, a Title IX investigator with McCarty Law Firm in Appleton, says that discrimination based on gender identity has been ruled as a violation of Title IX.

"As of 2020, the Supreme Court in Bostock vs. Clayton County held that discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity is inherently discrimination based on sex, that you cannot separate the two," Zimmer said.

However, she says whether or not refusing to use someone’s preferred pronouns counts as discrimination is still a gray area.

...

"If it’s in the context of harassment and maybe broader than just the use of the pronouns, then it could possibly fit within a policy depending on what that policy says,” Zimmer said.
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Ulty said:
I assume that you identify as a man and use he/him pronouns. Is that accurate?

What would you say if I started referring to you as "she" or "her," or if I told everyone that you were not really a man. You have chosen to be called "nic" on this board, but what if I decide to start calling you Nikki or Nicole or Nikkita. What if we end up using the same restroom and laugh at you and tell you that the ladies room is down the hall. What if you ask me politely to stop, but this only intensifies my actions. I refuse to acknowledge that you are a man and am now mocking you for being feminine. My friends join me, also referring to you as "she" and "Nicole." This goes on for months. 

Would you consider this intentional misgendering to be harassment? Why or why not? 
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Some people would freak out on you just for that.

 
nic said:
Misuse of pronouns is not sexual harassment in my opinion. If a boy tells another boy he plays baseball like a girl (from the Sand Lot)….just kidding. You are correct in that we do not know the full story yet. Perhaps there was inappropriate touching or other factors. 
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The misuse of pronouns being or not being sexual harassment would depend entirely on the context of the misuse. 

There's definitely a certain way that could go down that would qualify, much in the same way where if I was constantly making remarks at work to my female coworker about her huge boobs and how great they are would also qualify as sexual harassment. 

It doesn't have to be physical, but we really don't know enough about this situation to have a good evaluation yet.

 
Lorewarn said:
The misuse of pronouns being or not being sexual harassment would depend entirely on the context of the misuse. 

There's definitely a certain way that could go down that would qualify, much in the same way where if I was constantly making remarks at work to my female coworker about her huge boobs and how great they are would also qualify as sexual harassment. 

It doesn't have to be physical, but we really don't know enough about this situation to have a good evaluation yet.
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That is why I mentioned “or other factors” that we do not know about. Denying someone club membership based on sex or sexual innuendos….we will see what falls out. The school will not say much until it’s in court. 

 
What scientific study did I miss or is does she mean a biological women identifying as a man? I saw my wife go through multiple pregnancies. I can safely say she is tougher than I am and I would prefer a nut punch to being pregnant. :D


 
nic said:
What scientific study did I miss or is does she mean a biological women identifying as a man? I saw my wife go through multiple pregnancies. I can safely say she is tougher than I am and I would prefer a nut punch to being pregnant. :D
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I wonder how many people that are upset at the verbiage “pregnant man” would also freak out if the “woman” in the below picture went into the Walmart restroom with their daughter…

https://www.news24.com/parent/Pregnant/transgender-man-expecting-his-second-child-after-falling-pregnant-by-happy-accident-20200618

1B080D51-80DA-463D-8056-E3A34FA1FA04.webp

 
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funhusker said:
I wonder how many people that are upset at the verbiage “pregnant man” would also freak out if the “woman” in the below picture went into the Walmart restroom with their daughter…

https://www.news24.com/parent/Pregnant/transgender-man-expecting-his-second-child-after-falling-pregnant-by-happy-accident-20200618

View attachment 19634
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Well that answers my question. That is what I was thinking. And yes I suspect some of the women in that bathroom would leave. Maybe most. Edit: Is there a case where a male that transitioned to a female gave birth or got pregnant?

 
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nic said:
Well that answers my question. That is what I was thinking. And yes I suspect some of the women in that bathroom would leave. Maybe most. Edit: Is there a case where a male that transitioned to a female gave birth or got pregnant?
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Human? No. Not that I'm aware of. 

Some species of fish on the other hand. However, some humans have turned into fish. (South park reference). So maybe it is possible. 

Nature, amirite.

 
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